The Spread Offense

[Alabamafan]

Bomber,
I was once a 3 yard and cloud of dust type of player. But with all the spread offenses that are popping up in college football I can now relate to the need to spread defenses out and run plus throw the football. When you spread defenses out you are able to run the football more effective than in the traditional I formation. Don't get me wrong the I is still the staple of any teams offense but with all the new super athlete types, you really need to spread defenses out. I really noticed how effective the run can be from the spread by watching a tape of the 2000 Michigan vs Northwestern game. My question to you Bomber is why did'nt the spread offense of Oklahoma work in the BCS championship game against LSU? Thanks for any input.

Alabamafan

[djwill13]

not bomber, but from what i can remember about the game, LSU's fron 4 got pressure without the need to blitz. also, they were running multiple zone blitzes and constantly switching up the coverage confusing the oklahoma qb (jason white?? i think)

that's what LSU's d was known for. i remember watching something on sportscenter sayin they never used the same blitz twice in a game and implemented a new blitz every game

the key to breaking up any pass starts with pressure. if you can manage to get pressure (especially from your front four without needing to blitz) the o line and qb are in for a long day. you can also look at the 2003 super bowl where Tampa Bay got constant pressure on Oakland.

the key to running the ball out of passing formations is to have your opponent believe you are passing. since most people call blitzes, recognize where the blitz is not coming from and run to that side unless your calling a trap. then you would want to run to that side in hopes of the defender over pursuing

hope this helps, i know my assertation isn't perfect, but it's what i understand given the info i'm given

[Farmer]

Basically,
LSU did their homework and watch game film of OU getting their hats handed to them by KSU in the Big 12 Championship game. KSU decided that they were gonna keep some one in White's face all night. Quick pass to the WR or HB........ Bam!!!! Say hello to Mr. LB. Run play......... Bam again!!! Get reaquainted with Mr. LB. LSU saw this and always had someone putting pressure on White, and when the WR would catch the ball; they couldn't get any chunks of YAC and or they got popped.


Bombers take may be different from mine, but this is what I noticed in the two games.




-Farmer

[dmy365]

In a nutshell, OU's offense didn't go anywhere against LSU because Jason White can't run. LSU had the athletes on the outside to man up on the Sooner receivers allowing LSU to play games with the DL and LBs up front. Their are only two real effective ways to counteract what LSU was doing: 1) have a QB capable of picking up alot of yards scrambling or at the very least being able to buy time for his receivers to get some separation or 2) run alot of tunnel or middle screens to put more pressure on the defense and try to hit the big play. Unfortunately for OU, they are not as proficient at the screen game as alot of other spread teams. It was a very similar situation to what the OU defense did to Chris Wienke and the Seminoles in the '00 title game, although FSU ran less of a true spread offense- you're forcing a QB that doesn't like to run to beat you with his legs or make some very accurate throws under heavy pressure.

Now people might ask if LSU could do it, why did OU light up everyone else all year long? Because OU has a very good OLine and against 98% of the teams they play, too many athletes on the outside for most defenses to match up with. It's more of a pick your poison situation. You can either rush 4 and let White pick your zone apart, or try to match up and send LBs after the QB when OU has the superior athletes.

This situation is why I disagree with those that say the spread offense is an "equalizer" for teams with less talent. Ever watch Texas Tech play OU or Purdue play Ohio State the last couple of years? OU makes the TT offense look below average because the Sooners have the athletes that can play in space and take away the screen game that the Red Raiders love. The best offense to run as an equalizer is the double slot (flexbone) option that Air Force and Navy run. Some tremendous blocking angles and you take away much of the defense's ability to be agressive and overwhelm you with their talent.

[mad_bomber]

There's a difference in the way some teams go about using the spread offense. Teams such as Northwestern, West Virginia, Utah, and Middle Tenn State spread you out to run the football. On the other end of the spectrum teams such as Hawaii, Texas Tech, Washington State, Michigan State, and Louisiana Tech spread you out to throw the football first and foremost. In my opinion to truly make the spread offense go you need a quarterback with some decent mobility and who can run the ball effectively on the predetermined quarterback run plays and who has the ability to sit in the pocket and make down the field throws.

As for that Northwestern/Michigan game I have that game on tape also. Basically those running plays that you see Northwestern using are nothing more than I formation plays, but they're run from the gun with three and four receiver sets. The plays Northwestern ran in that game were the tackle trap, dart, inside and outside zone with the quarterback read, counter, quarterback draw, speed option, toss, and the gun triple. These plays are very effective from spread formations becuase the defense has to obviously spread out to cover down all of the receivers. The casual fan may not realize it, but the running game from the spread in my opinion is more effective from traditional two back sets. Northwestern was second in the Big 10 in rushing last season.

From my understanding that running offense from the gun you see teams using now was being run years ago when Tommy Bowden and Rich Rodriguez were both at Tulane. I remember watching Tulane play once and noticed they were running the ball very well from the gun with four wides.

Florida runs the shotgun spread offense also and they had lots of success running the ball against LSU. They pretty much put the game away with a 60 yard plus run late in the 4th quarter that allowed them to run out the clock. They were able to hit the tackle trap for some nice gains on a few occassions. Also Chris Leake was able to make plays outside of the pocket with his good mobility. Some of the plays he made were very clutch. LSU was able to sack him and get some good shots on him, but overall he was able to escape some of the pressure and make a play. If you look at the final stats from that game you won't be wowed by Florida's rushing totals, but that was in large part due to the quarterback sacks LSU got.

The Gators also had lots of success with receiver screens and releasing their back through the line of scrimmage against LSU's blitz. Releasing the receiver through the line was very effective against LSU as every team the Tigers faced the rest of the season started doing that. Ole Miss scored against LSU with that scheme and OU almost scored with it in the Sugar Bowl.
You need balance to beat a team like LSU. South Carolina also uses the spread offense, but LSU totally blasted them in Columbia. In my opinion South Carolina didn't have anything that resembled a Div 1A passing offense a year ago. That made them very one dimensional which against a team like LSU is a big no-no.

I think the thing with OU was that Jason White's lack of mobility due to his past knee injuries allowed LSU to zone in on him. The Tigers were able to send all sorts of exotic blitz and zone blitz schemes at the sooners that really frustrated them. LSU's last score came off an over load zone blitz to the weak side that caused Jason White to go to his hot read. That hot read was picked off by a defensive end dropping into coverage. If you recall in that game in the 4th quarter OU started running the ball from the I formation with the ISO and Power O plays. By going to the I formation and running the ball OU no longer subjected themselves to the those exotic defensive schemes of LSU.

[djwill13]

i don't know about the lack of mobility thing. we (UGA) put shockley in when we still had a chance to win the game when we were playin at LSU and he couldn't do crap either. of course, he looks to run first, so that may or may not be true

[mad_bomber]

In my opinion DJ Shockley hasn't progressed far enough with his decision making in the passing game to be much of a threat to a defensive team like LSU. Ironically that may be LSU's downfall this season without Matt Mauck. I watched that game and everytime they put him my friends and I were like all he's going to do is look to run. I'm guessing if I was thinking that, I'm sure Nick Saban was thinking that as well. UGA could've won that game, but their defense made some crucial mistakes at the worst possible moments.

[djwill13]

as a fan of UGA i will have to agree with you. the sad part is, up to that point we had arguably one of the best (not the best, but one of) d's in the nation

i couldn't agree with you more regarding shockley. i really hope he learns a lot this year cause next year we are going to be in some serious trouble on both sides of the ball

we had a ton of injuries last year, gibson played hurt the majority of the year. hopefully we'll rebound and have an excellent year. beating LSU would be nice, but i'd rather lose to them and beat UF if we HAD to lose a game. they've beat us like 14-15 games i believe. time to put that to an end!

[TrojanNole]

I think Ok. was one or two plays from being into the game with LSU, White could never figure out LSU's zone blitzs and totally threw his timing off on the deep routes he should have hit once before half and near the end of the game.

[CrazyOldGuy]

I didn't watch all of the OU-LSU game but I can tell you I thought LSU was more of a spread team than OU.

While Kevin Wilson(?) is on the staff and was instrumental in the Northwestern spread that frustrated Michigan, OU isn't exactly the same spread offense it was under Leach. Long is much more traditional using the spread more occasionally as many of the bigger programs do (I wouldn't call Michigan or Ohio State spread teams but they have occasions when they line up in 4 wide or No-back).

Honest I'm not trying to pick on you dmy :( but the spread passing offense has been an unbelievable equalizer for programs like Texas Tech,Purdue and Northwestern. Purdue especially would be extremely hard presssed to duplicate the success it has had with a traditional attack. This is a team that hadn't gone to a bowl game for decades and now it is a regular. NW has been a bottom dweller in big 10 yet the spread has allowed their average teams to get to bowl games. A team like Tech probably doesn't have any business hanging in the Big 12, after all in the old SWC it was usually a middle of the pack team.

I totally agree with you that the option offense can be just as great an equalizer . But it too suffers when it encounters opposing defenses with great talent (at lb and dl, watch those old Miami vs OU games or many of the Navy vs ND). What hurts the spread teams in the big 10 and the big 12 is the depth their much more talented opponents can counter with, their isn't a huge drop off between the 1st and 4th db, and that 4th string db is still more talented than Tech/Purdue's 2nd string receiver. Still the spread like the option has allowed traditional bottom dwellers to solidly lock themselves into the upper echelon of some great conferences.

[dmy365]

I disagree wholeheartedly, CrazyOldGuy. Texas Tech has either had 5 or 6 losses in a season 12 of the last 13 years! TTU was an average SWC/Big 12 team when Spike Dykes was running the ball 55 times a game and they're still an average team running Leach's spread. Despite all of the offensive fireworks, TTU has not improved its overall bottom line as far as wins and losses.

Northwestern went to the Rose Bowl and Citrus Bowl in the mid 90's with essentially a power running attack, then had a few bad years. Had a good team in 2000 running the spread and been crappy ever since. There's absolutely no correlation between a switch to the spread offense and a change in Wildcat football fortunes.

Purdue's turnaround under Joe Tiller is as much about improvement on defense than anything else. Purdue put quite a few points on the board back when Mike Alstott was toting the ball, but they could never stop anyone. The annual 56-54 game against Minnesota used to be one of the most exciting games of the year in the early and mid 90s. :D Now you could make the case that the a more quarterback friendly offensive scheme helped Purdue land quality QBs like Brees and Orton, but that's not really the point of our conversation. :) If you are getting the top notch recruits, there's nothing left to equalize. :p

[mad_bomber]

Purdue really started to play good defense during the last few seasons under Joe Tiller and that has more to do with the way they're currently playing offense. His first season when Billy Dickens(?) was the quarterback their defense wasn't that good. They got routed by Toledo that year. They never really did have a good defense in any of the years Drew Brees was the quarterback. I have many of those Purdue games on dvd and I can't recall them really shutting down any of their Big 10 opponents. Since Drew Brees left, Purdue has had a few hiccups with finding a consistent quarterback so they've started to rely more on two tight end sets and running the ball. Naturally when you run the ball you use clock and when you use clock you limit the opportunities your opponent's offense is on the field and keeps your defense off the field. Obviously that style of play leads to more low scoring games.

Now maybe it's coincidental, but there are numerous instances where a coach is hired, installs the spread they take off. I remember when John L. Smith was hired at Louisville and the season before the Cards were 1-10 and had one of the worst offenses in the country under Ron Cooper. John L. Smith comes in and installs the spread offense and suddenly Louisville is leading the nation in total offense at over 520 yards per game. Urban Meyer goes to Bowling Green and turns that program around and then goes to Utah and wins a conference championship. I'm not saying the spread offense is the end all cure all solution, not by a long shot. What I am saying is the spread offense has brought some new life to some programs that were stuck in quicksand.

Take a look at OU. Before Bob Stoops and Mike Leach came to Norman the Sooners were just kind of floundering around. They didn't exactly strike fear into anyone's heart the way they do now. I watched OU in person during Bob Stoop's first season when they played at Louisville who was being coached by John L. Smith who was also in his first year. OU had Josh Hypel (sp?) and they were moving the ball up and down the field at will with the spread offense and Mike Leach calling the plays. Just from watching that game you could see that OU had a bright future ahead. OU still runs the spread but they're a little different from Texas Tech. They hired Kevin Wilson from Northwestern to install those spread running concepts I mentioned in my previous post. They also look to go vertical moreso than Tech and they have added a power run game element from the I formation.

[Alabamafan]

Guys,
Thanks for the inputs. My spread style I like to run on NCAA Football 2005 most resembles the Woodrow Danzler led Clemson teams of 2000 and 2001. Rich Rodriguez who was the offensive coordinator in 2000 is one of the early architects of the modern day spread attack. in 2000 Clemson was one of only eight teams in Division I football to average 200 yards rushing and 200 yards passing. That should give you proof that you can have a balanced offense out of the spreads. I have a tape of the 2000 Clemson vs Virginia game. Woody runs 23 times for 223 yards! The following week he runs for over 120 yards and Travis Zachery runs for over 140 yards against NC State. This is offensive production from the spread attack! What made Clemson attack so deadly was that they combined the spreads with a vicious hurry up offense. So in reality they are still wearing teams defenses down with the hurry up like traditional running teams wear defenses down with a relentless ground attack. I am a firm believer that if the opposing teams have dominate defenders you must spread them out to get them in space to exploit match up problems. Again, thanks for the inputs and any more you can give.

Alabamafan

[dmy365]

Purdue really started to play good defense during the last few seasons under Joe Tiller and that has more to do with the way they're currently playing offense. His first season when Billy Dickens(?) was the quarterback their defense wasn't that good. They got routed by Toledo that year. They never really did have a good defense in any of the years Drew Brees was the quarterback. I have many of those Purdue games on dvd and I can't recall them really shutting down any of their Big 10 opponents. Since Drew Brees left, Purdue has had a few hiccups with finding a consistent quarterback so they've started to rely more on two tight end sets and running the ball. Naturally when you run the ball you use clock and when you use clock you limit the opportunities your opponent's offense is on the field and keeps your defense off the field. Obviously that style of play leads to more low scoring games.

Now maybe it's coincidental, but there are numerous instances where a coach is hired, installs the spread they take off. I remember when John L. Smith was hired at Louisville and the season before the Cards were 1-10 and had one of the worst offenses in the country under Ron Cooper. John L. Smith comes in and installs the spread offense and suddenly Louisville is leading the nation in total offense at over 520 yards per game. Urban Meyer goes to Bowling Green and turns that program around and then goes to Utah and wins a conference championship. I'm not saying the spread offense is the end all cure all solution, not by a long shot. What I am saying is the spread offense has brought some new life to some programs that were stuck in quicksand.

Take a look at OU. Before Bob Stoops and Mike Leach came to Norman the Sooners were just kind of floundering around. They didn't exactly strike fear into anyone's heart the way they do now. I watched OU in person during Bob Stoop's first season when they played at Louisville who was being coached by John L. Smith who was also in his first year. OU had Josh Hypel (sp?) and they were moving the ball up and down the field at will with the spread offense and Mike Leach calling the plays. Just from watching that game you could see that OU had a bright future ahead. OU still runs the spread but they're a little different from Texas Tech. They hired Kevin Wilson from Northwestern to install those spread running concepts I mentioned in my previous post. They also look to go vertical moreso than Tech and they have added a power run game element from the I formation.

I certainly see what you're saying, mad bomber. But I think the turnaround at some of these schools has a lot less to with the spread offense and more to do with a quality head coach and coaching staff. For all the examples of coaches coming in and installing a spread offense and turning around programs, there are just as many coaches that don't run the spread and have had success. Iowa has completely turned around under Ferentz. Minnesota has turned it around under Mason by becoming the best inside zone team in the country. While Tedford at Cal certainly employs some spread concepts in his offense, it's much more of a pro style west coast attack than a true spread.

Purdue has never been a great defensive team, but under Tiller they've become a team that gives up 22 or 23 points per game versus the 30 plus they used to give up. A 7 or 8 point per game swing like that makes a huge difference in the win and loss column.

[mad_bomber]

I totally agree with you. I meant to make that point that the head coach and his coaching staff has more to do with the success of a program regardless of what schemes they're using.

[dmy365]

mad bomber,

This whole thread has reminded me why I love the small college game more than major college from a conceptual standpoint. The reason? In the small colleges, there isn't the pressure to run a certain style of offense as a recruiting tool or for administrations to hire coaches that run "fan friendly" schemes.

You still see very successful programs like Carson-Newman that have run the split back veer forever and are still running it. Teams still run the wishbone and wing T. One of the most entertaining offenses I have ever seen in college football was Delta State a couple of years ago under Steve Campbell. They ran the double slot option game but combined it with wide open passing attack that borrowed from both the RNS and spread concepts. Very entertaining to watch. You also see alot more 3-4 and 50 defensive fronts in the small college game.

I know that this is all getting off topic, but it's entertaining nonetheless, at least for me anyway. :eek:

[mad_bomber]

Yep, you hit the nail on the head with that one. The same can be said about Div III, NAIA, and the Juco ranks. As for DSU I know all about the Delta State Statemen located in Cleveland, Mississippi and that offense they ran. I have that DII National Championship game on tape. I actually created a custom playbook similar to that. :D The Gulf South Conference is a very tough league. I know Grand Valley State is currently the top team in DII, but the GSC can hold it's on with any of them in my opinion.

[dmy365]

Grand Valley State is a perfect example of a spread team that evolves back and forth from a passing team to a running team based on personell. In 2002 when they won the title they had that receiver that's now with the Lions (David Kircus) and a QB that's in NFL Europe. They threw the ball alot and were a tremendous screening team. In fact, I think that Kircus guy had over 30 TD receptions in one year!! Last year they graduated all of their receivers and quarterback, so they switched to running the ball alot more out of the spread and were just as effective. GVSU is so commited to the spread offense that it almost cost them the 2002 national championship game. Leading by 7 late in the game, they still had the QB in the shotgun from their own 2 yard line! He fumbled the snap and Valdosta State (another very good spread/ screening team) recovered the ball for a TD to tie the game. GVSU recovered though and went the length of the field on their next drive to win the game.

Speaking of the Gulf South Conference, I saw North Alabama play last year and that's the first time I've seen the 3-3 stack defense live. There are some things I do and don't like about it, but that's a topic for another thread. :D North Alabama also did some interesting stuff out of the spread. They went to 5 wides alot and did some cool things with their passing game against a cover 3 team. They would run some bubble screen action with the #2's on both sides, run the #1's on slants or skinny posts, and release the #3 deep to occupy the free safety. If the outside LB respects the slant (which he should) they just 8 to 10 yard you to death with that bubble play until you do something different. It was very interesting watching the cat and mouse game the defense needed to play to try to contain UNA's spread.

[mad_bomber]

GVSU is so commited to the spread offense that it almost cost them the 2002 national championship game. Leading by 7 late in the game, they still had the QB in the shotgun from their own 2 yard line! He fumbled the snap and Valdosta State (another very good spread/ screening team) recovered the ball for a TD to tie the game. GVSU recovered though and went the length of the field on their next drive to win the game.

I have that game on tape as well. I remember Bob Davie commenting on he doesn't understand why they're in the shotgun in that situation. That offense they had that year was incredible to watch. They could've opened a clinic on how to throw the bubble and slip screens. The interesting thing I noticed is that they'd send Kircus up the field a good bit to push the corner off and then they'd bring him back down and inside of the blocks of the pulling linemen. They really did a good job of selling the vertical look first. I haven't seen too many other teams go that deep and then come back underneath. I don't even know if Texas Tech does that on their screens.

Chris Hatcher the head coach at Valdosta State comes from the Hal Mumme/Mike Leach system. UNA they kind of stole DSU's old offensive coordinator :D. Actually he left Delta State to be Navy's OC for a few seasons then he went to UNA.

[dmy365]

Your exactly right about the Grand Valley screen game, mad bomber. The receiver would sell the route upfield, then come back and receive the pass behind the line of scrimmage in most cases. This would allow the linemen to get out and block early without drawing a penalty. The GVSU offensive tackles were outstanding at releasing out to pick off the nearest defender and everyone else created an alley. Truly a thing of beauty to watch. My school played GVSU in a couple of great national title games in '01 and '03 with the games going down to the wire and each team winning once so I'm very familiar with the Lakers. Coach Brian Kelly has now left GVSU for Central Michigan and I understand he plans on running the same offense with the Chippewas so it will be interesting to see if he has similar results.

If I recall correctly, Chris Hatcher was the original "Air Raid" QB in the Mumme/Leach system for Valdosta in the mid 90s. They had some extremely potent offenses and great teams, but they couldn't get past the great North Alabama teams led by Bobby Wallace that won 3 straight Division II titles.

[BALANCED ATTACK]

Other than Mark Clayton,all the OK Wrs suck,LSU (great CBs) played tight man defense,and blitzed a non mobile QB in Jason White.

BOTTOM LINE :cool:

[CrazyOldGuy]

TTU has not improved its overall bottom line as far as wins and losses.

DMY, you missed my most important point, the spread allows Tech to compete with the big boys, I say give me that Leach TTU team in the Mountain West, WAC or Sun Belt and you have a league champion or no worse than a 3rd finish. TTU in the big 12 will always be out recruited by the Texas,Nebraska and Oklahoma's.

Northwestern's power running game era oddly enough started with Barnett using almost exclusively 5 wides against Notre Dame in his debut. His teams were probably the most talented Northwestern has ever put on the field. Which gets back to Walker, you certainly can't say his teams are going to out talent people in the Big 10, yet scheme wise the spread has also given them a chance.

Brees was a lucky recruit (he landed in their lap) and while I agree Brock Spack is one of the best DC's in the country, his defenses until last year were ALL ABOUT scheme. Purdue also has had horrific special teams. Tiller himself admits these past two years have been some of his SLOWEST teams offensively,yet again the scheme has put them in a position to win.

My point, I don't think we can look at these teams results with out taking into account their competition.

Obviously the better coach (Paul Johnson) will get more results than say your average coach (Tim Stowers).

:)


Bomber-- lets not forget June Jones miracle at Hawaii the greatest turnaround in NCAA history from 0-12 with a "balanced " West Coast offense to 9-4 with a pass happy Run and Shoot.

Don't forget my favorite D3 teams Wisconsin Platteville which runs as pretty and as ingenius a spread offenses as I've seen and Williamette with its "FLY OFFENSE".

[mad_bomber]

COG,

Is Wisconsin Plateville coached by Mike Emendorfer? I know he used to be at Hanover and I have one of his playbooks from there. That is probably the best spread offense playbook I have and I have quite a few :). If only we had a play editor.

[Bronco]

The videos I have by him are when he's at Platteville...I don't recall if he's the head coach though...

[mad_bomber]

What's your opinion of the content in his videos? I'm considering getting the book, but since I have a few of his playbooks I don't know if there's much carry over or not.

[CrazyOldGuy]

Bomber and Bronc,

You are both correct, Emendorfer was the long time OC at Hanover. He's now the head coach at UWPlatteville.

I have both the videos and the books. The videos are great videos but they do tend to be a bit repetative. I think if you are interested Bomber you might want to get the Fundementals or Building the Systems videos and then if you like the stuff build on it from there. If you have the Hanover Playbooks there probably isn't going to be a ton of new stuff for you in the Platteville book to consider buying it (although if anyone else is interested in it, its a GREAT playbook ).. HE's a HUGE HUGE believer in the the bubble screen and I've always loved that Short Route (Its almost the perfect goaline pass) since I read it about from Coverdale and Robinson.

The short was the first play I put in the Madden play editor back in 2k3 and it will be the first play I put in if we ever get one for NCAA.

[Bronco]

Bomber,

I'd pretty much agree with COG's assessment. To be honest with you, I can't really remember having any type of opinion on them, which pretty much speaks for itself. As you know, any time you order a video, you take your chances. I really don't think you would get much out of them. I'll send them to you if you want...

I've heard good things about the Marshall series of videos...and all the WMU stuff I have is very good (thanks COG ;) )...

[mad_bomber]

Bronco, COG

Thanks for the info. I didn't think there would be much more I could pickup especially since I have the Hanover Book already.