Does the Republican party have a death wish?

[McMadden]

The Stimulus bill passed, and thanks to the Majority Dems in both houses we are on our way. I laugh when Steel was nominated and won the RNC chair, this will fracture the party even more.

These are the same clowns that did not bat an eye when Bush was spending like crazy, now when a Dem is in charge, woe wis our children. Give me a ****en break!

[Sgt.Slaughter]

McMadden you are my bestfriend on this section of the board...Thank You for not only being real 24/7 but thank you for having historical knowledge and common sense. 2 things the conservative base...*cough* Supdog lack

[TheSphinx 2.0]

McMadden are you serious. I am a lifelong Dem and there is no way I would vote for this bill. Over a trillion dollars with interest and less than a day to read the final bill. ARE YOU INSANE. Half the money won't hit the economy for ovr 2 years. WTH??? Silly stuff in there for musuems and STDs. THIS IS MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHY AM I PAYING FOR STD PREVENTION.

Why it is bad for Bush to blow our money but when Dems do it it is OK??? Why is it bad for Obama to blow our money but when Repubs do it it is OK???

Do people really even understand what is happening. Do you understand that if tomorrow China said "we will no longer buy US debt" that the US would descend to a 3rd world country and everything you have would be basically worthless. The situation is bad and yet all I see is thread after thread taking shots at the other party. It is like the only thing people care about is who is in power.

Just because a dem proposed it doesn't mean it is right. Over 1 trillion dollars that we will have to borrow from the Chinese. Interest rates at all time lows meaning all prudent people are getting hosed.

We all need to get over this silly "I'm a dem, so I have to agree with everything the dems do" or "I am a repub so anything a dem does must be wrong" and think about the big picture. This is how politicians take advantage of the country. Everyone is so busy fighting each other nobody is actually asking "what are you guys doing in Washington". The would much rather there be thread after thread attacking Obama then threads analyzing how money was spent in the Iraq war. They would much rather thread after thread attacking repubs then questioning why there is money in the bill for healthcare for millionaires.

This money is not free. You are paying for every penny of it. I don't understand people sometimes...the country is burning underneath them and all they care about is taking shots at the other party.

I am a lifelong Democrat who voted for Obama but I am with the Republicans on this. My hard earned money should not be put at jeapordy unless there is deep and unbiased analyzes of every penny. This bill is full of garbage and I worked too hard for my money to have it thrown out the window.

In the end what difference will it make if you are a Dem or a Repub if you are unemployed and your country is unwinding. Is it more important for Dems to support Dems even if the policy is bad...or Repubs to support rebups even if the polity is bad. Or is it more important to get the right policy in place to save the country??

-TS

[resnor]

There is also a huge difference between the spending of Bush, and the spending in this bill. Much of Bush's spending was a result of 9/11 and the War in Iraq. Take away the War in Iraq, and how much was Bush's spending?

Get real, McMadden and Slaughter. Sphinx had it exactly right. I'm sick of people (LIBERALS) pointing at Bush, and saying, "Well, Bush did X, so it's OK for Obama to do Y." Even when Y is way more crazy than Bush's X.

[Sgt.Slaughter]

There is also a huge difference between the spending of Bush, and the spending in this bill. Much of Bush's spending was a result of 9/11 and the War in Iraq. Take away the War in Iraq, and how much was Bush's spending?

Get real, McMadden and Slaughter. Sphinx had it exactly right. I'm sick of people (LIBERALS) pointing at Bush, and saying, "Well, Bush did X, so it's OK for Obama to do Y." Even when Y is way more crazy than Bush's X.

How wrong you are...I see you just love to throw your conservative crap around like it's actually logical...it's not.

1. Glenn Beck From the no-spin, no bias Fox Media...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDEe0Ai6lTM

2. The actual release study from the Federal Reserve Bank in St. Louis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZsY1rFr_yw

Beck want's you to believe that there was nearly $1 trillion in borrowing from y2k and 9/11 time period. Incorrect. And that this new stimulus package will push the deficit to to greater lengths and cause the markets to fail. but weren't the markets failing under Bush?

In 2008, the last year of George Bush's presidency, the banking crisis caused approx $600 billion

The borrowing didn't start heavy until the banking crisis because the money to furnish the War in Iraq and just about every other war was borrowed from China not the Fed.

And you know I finally understand the conservative strategy on spin and bulls**t. They quote Thomas Jefferson about the devaluing of money and now the conservative base will claim that Obama is anti-American and against the views of one of the founding fathers of America. Yes, because the founding fathers of America were against Jews, Native Americans and Blacks so if thats the case every President since Jefferson must have been anti-American, correct?

They claimed Obama as a Marxist and now he's pushing socialism. but what the conservatives don't tell you is that Marxist theory's are the base of capitalistic views that founded the Republican party. Hannity said capitalism is basically the way to go...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkcsZRxilsM

So you mean to tell me that Obama was supporting the very ideals of the Republican party during his campaign? Or did the conservative media just throw out a word to scare up people not knowing the true meaning behind it?

I go with the later...the idiots known as Hannity and Limbaugh found out that hey Marxism is actually what the Republican party is all about, capitalism. And now they suddenly change it up and say hey, Obama and his socialist beliefs, blah blah blah. But from 1854, the republican base has supported the beliefs of marxism thoughtout its history.

They're confused and throwing you close-minded individuals, like SupDog and Resnor, Joe the Plumber and the conservative retards, into a tail spin because you all talk about Marxism and socialism but you don't realize that they are total opposites and that the conservative media base that you listen too is just playing you like phucking Pinnochio.

Read a book. Do some research and generate you own opinions.

[resnor]

The markets failing was not Bush's fault. The markets failing stem from the leveraging that was done, which was almost wholly the fault of bad mortgages. Banks were willing to give risky loans to people who couldn't afford them because they knew that they could turn around and sell them to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Perhaps you forget 2005, when the Republicans wanted to do something about that, and you had Barney Frank, and other leading Dems said that there was nothing wrong with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Guess they were wrong, huh? Yet you, and other libs, want to put the blame on Bush and the Republicans. John Sununu put forth a plan to in 04 or 05 to solve the coming housing crisis, and he was also ignored. Bush tried to do something, and the Dems blocked him too.

Marxism is the basis of capitalism? Really. Prove it.

Keep throwing out the insults towards conservatives. I thought it was against the rules, but I guess it's not. I'll start throwing them out too, and see how long it is before I get warned.

You tell me to form my own opinions...but what you mean is that I should change my beliefs so that they align with yours. Keep going to your kook blogs, and listening to crazy liberals on tv, and thinking that you're forming your own beliefs. By the way, how is that video on Hannity have anything to do with Marxism? Hannity is advocating for smaller government, and NOT for "cradle to the grave" government. He is advocating AGAINST distribution of wealth. Everything he is advocating against, are things that Obama and the liberals are advocating for. The libs want a government that controls every aspect of your life. Conservatives want you to be in control of your life.

Again, you pointed to Bush's spending as a way to try to justify Obama's spending. I'm not arguing that Bush was some sort of fiscal conservative. He wasn't. However, if Bush's spending was out of control, WHY IN THE WORLD would I want Obama to come in with even MORE spending?

You have bought hook, line, and sinker into Obama's rhetoric. You are a little Obamatron. How are you dealing with his broken promises? Transparent? Nope. Gonna throw the lobbyists out of government? Nope. Gonna pull out of Iraq. Nope. Obama is no different than any other politician out there...except that he is perhaps the most left wing, socialist minded President that we have ever had.

[McMadden]

McMadden are you serious. I am a lifelong Dem and there is no way I would vote for this bill. Over a trillion dollars with interest and less than a day to read the final bill. ARE YOU INSANE. Half the money won't hit the economy for ovr 2 years. WTH??? Silly stuff in there for museums and STDs. THIS IS MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHY AM I PAYING FOR STD PREVENTION.

Why it is bad for Bush to blow our money but when Dems do it it is OK??? Why is it bad for Obama to blow our money but when Repubs do it it is OK???

Do people really even understand what is happening. Do you understand that if tomorrow China said "we will no longer buy US debt" that the US would descend to a 3rd world country and everything you have would be basically worthless. The situation is bad and yet all I see is thread after thread taking shots at the other party. It is like the only thing people care about is who is in power.

Just because a dem proposed it doesn't mean it is right. Over 1 trillion dollars that we will have to borrow from the Chinese. Interest rates at all time lows meaning all prudent people are getting hosed.

We all need to get over this silly "I'm a dem, so I have to agree with everything the dems do" or "I am a repub so anything a dem does must be wrong" and think about the big picture. This is how politicians take advantage of the country. Everyone is so busy fighting each other nobody is actually asking "what are you guys doing in Washington". The would much rather there be thread after thread attacking Obama then threads analyzing how money was spent in the Iraq war. They would much rather thread after thread attacking repubs then questioning why there is money in the bill for healthcare for millionaires. . [ The Bill is on-line, shut me up and point to the line item where it states that about millionaires and health care. I call your bluff. If you can't find it, then I would suggest you stop listening to kooks on TV/radio who are so called experts like that junky Rush.]


This money is not free. You are paying for every penny of it. I don't understand people sometimes...the country is burning underneath them and all they care about is taking shots at the other party.

I am a lifelong Democrat who voted for Obama but I am with the Republicans on this. My hard earned money should not be put at jeopardy unless there is deep and unbiased analyzes of every penny. This bill is full of garbage and I worked too hard for my money to have it thrown out the window.

In the end what difference will it make if you are a Dem or a Repub if you are unemployed and your country is unwinding. Is it more important for Dems to support Dems even if the policy is bad...or Repubs to support rebups even if the polity is bad. Or is it more important to get the right policy in place to save the country??
-TS

Let me repeat what I said!

The Stimulus bill passed, and thanks to the Majority Dems in both houses we are on our way. I laugh when Steele was nominated and won the RNC chair, this will fracture the party even more.

These are the same clowns that did not bat an eye when Bush was spending like crazy, now when a Dem is in charge, woe wis our children. Give me a ****en break!
Unlike you all, I don't think that the money in this Stimulus Bill is being blown by Obama. And when I said clowns (Republicans) didn't bat an eye when Bushes Bills came down.

What you all don't understand is this, we need to get this country working again, what is the alternative? Oh right tax cuts. What about Bush's Bankruptcy Laws, and the Credit Card repayment de-regulations etc, etc, that hurt so many Americans. Again these same clowns didn't give a flying **** about our kids until they lost the election. Get over it, Obama won!

Also, isn't ignorant to expect that people who work in a condom factory or museum don't buy cars or houses. I mean really? :confused:

[Sgt.Slaughter]

The markets failing was not Bush's fault. The markets failing stem from the leveraging that was done, which was almost wholly the fault of bad mortgages. Banks were willing to give risky loans to people who couldn't afford them because they knew that they could turn around and sell them to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Perhaps you forget 2005, when the Republicans wanted to do something about that, and you had Barney Frank, and other leading Dems said that there was nothing wrong with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Guess they were wrong, huh? Yet you, and other libs, want to put the blame on Bush and the Republicans. John Sununu put forth a plan to in 04 or 05 to solve the coming housing crisis, and he was also ignored. Bush tried to do something, and the Dems blocked him too.

Marxism is the basis of capitalism? Really. Prove it.

Keep throwing out the insults towards conservatives. I thought it was against the rules, but I guess it's not. I'll start throwing them out too, and see how long it is before I get warned.

You tell me to form my own opinions...but what you mean is that I should change my beliefs so that they align with yours. Keep going to your kook blogs, and listening to crazy liberals on tv, and thinking that you're forming your own beliefs. By the way, how is that video on Hannity have anything to do with Marxism? Hannity is advocating for smaller government, and NOT for "cradle to the grave" government. He is advocating AGAINST distribution of wealth. Everything he is advocating against, are things that Obama and the liberals are advocating for. The libs want a government that controls every aspect of your life. Conservatives want you to be in control of your life.

Again, you pointed to Bush's spending as a way to try to justify Obama's spending. I'm not arguing that Bush was some sort of fiscal conservative. He wasn't. However, if Bush's spending was out of control, WHY IN THE WORLD would I want Obama to come in with even MORE spending?

You have bought hook, line, and sinker into Obama's rhetoric. You are a little Obamatron. How are you dealing with his broken promises? Transparent? Nope. Gonna throw the lobbyists out of government? Nope. Gonna pull out of Iraq. Nope. Obama is no different than any other politician out there...except that he is perhaps the most left wing, socialist minded President that we have ever had.


Question how did the Dem's block Bush from stopping the housing crisis in 2004 or 2005, as you suggest, when the Dem's didn't have majority until 2006? And every piece of legislation Bush wanted he got from 2001 until 2006.

Marxism:
human actions and institutions are economically determined and that class struggle is needed to create historical change and capitalism.

Marxism calls for a classless society, where all means of production are commonly owned, a system to be reached as an inevitable result of the struggle between capitalists and workers.

The doctrines of Karl Marx and his associate Friedrich Engels on economics, politics, and society. They include the notion of economic determinism — that political and social structures are determined by the economic conditions of people. Marxism calls for a classless society in which all means of production are commonly owned (communism), a system to be reached as an inevitable result of the struggle between the leaders of capitalism and the workers.

Marxism is the political philosophy and practice derived from the work of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Marxism holds at its core capitalism and a theory of social change.


No. I don't want you to conform to my beliefs because thats not the purpose. I would just hope that some conservatives would have an open mind to liberal beliefs just like some, well i do, have a open mind to conservative beliefs.

I don't agree with everything that Obama proposes. Like my personal opinion is that this stimulus package should go to the American people. If you put an extra that $737 Billion split between the 100 million citizens. 200 billion dollars set aside would be $2,000 for each of us. And you can't tell me the American people spending $2,000 won't boost the economy in a heartbeat. There would a slight increase in investments or people paying off a portion of bad debt, or catching up on bills.

I don't agree with universal health care but a supplement of affordable health care should be provided to needy citizens (children, unemployeed, elderly, students, etc.)

I don't agree with every issue that comes up however I am at least willing to give it a chance to see if it does produce something. Unlike the conservative base which would rather have Bush for a third-term i.e. McCain.

We are arguing over ideology. Libs want to control your life. Conservatives may want you to control your own life; but can you honestly say today that you are better off now than you were 10 years ago? Was the economy better off? Were there jobs?

The thing that erks me about conservatives is that they feel they do nothing wrong. If Bush is in office for 8 years and the conservatives control the House and Senate for the last 16 years but the Dem's take control of the House and Senate 2 years ago, then all the policies the Dem's put forward have put us in this credit and housing crisis??? Thats what the conservative base says and it makes no sense.

The problems were there before the Dems took control but they have escalated under there leadership because nobody could envision how horrible the crisis would be. 5 years ago nobody said that buying a home would be the riskiest thing you could ever do with your money. No. It was looked at as the finest form of building wealth because houses appreciate in value. Bulls**t!!!

you would think that after a long campaign year where the conservative base continuously used scare tactics to try to win an election (Obama not being an American citizen, Marxism, radical friends, radical beliefs, radical view points) after all that failed you would think they would take a different approach but no you all will be sitting here whining and complaining for the next 4, hopefully 8, years about policies the Obama administration put in place. Well im happy to know that because we have been feeling this way for the last 8 years.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

Conservatives are unhappy:D:D:D

[McMadden]

Question how did the Dem's block Bush from stopping the housing crisis in 2004 or 2005, as you suggest, when the Dem's didn't have majority until 2006? And every piece of legislation Bush wanted he got from 2001 until 2006.


you would think that after a long campaign year where the conservative base continuously used scare tactics to try to win an election (Obama not being an American citizen, Marxism, radical friends, radical beliefs, radical view points) after all that failed you would think they would take a different approach but no you all will be sitting here whining and complaining for the next 4, hopefully 8, years about policies the Obama administration put in place. Well im happy to know that because we have been feeling this way for the last 8 years.
:D:D:D
AMEN Brother! AMEN! :cool:

[TheRealist]

Read Sphinx's post again.

I agree 100% with him. (from a Conservative nonetheless...:D)

This Stimulus is a complete abomination and will do nothing to ease America's long term debt obligations. I even question its effectiveness in the short run considering the first billion dollar bailout had only a moderate effect on spending.

Look past party lines and instead to what is best. Differences will still happen, but at least we can throw at least some pre-determined bias out the window. Dem vs. Rep is like gang warfare now days...each side is always right and NO side is truly right.

**EDIT**

If this is supposed to be one of the most important bills EVER signed. Then why has approx 99% of Congressional Democrats/Republicans not read the bill in its entirety. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

[theanalogkid]

Republicans aren't behind it cause they are betting it will fail, and then suddenly come to the rescue for the 2010 mid-term elections and try to position themselves to take back Congress, and then like Democrats have no answer to solve anything. That's how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh8GzP-PLOY - He could have saved you.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

McMadden,

The bill provides COBRA benefits for people laid off during 2008 and 2009. The bill will cover 60% of the premiums for 9 months (it used to be 18, I think it is 9 now). The only condition is that a family can't make more than $250k ($125k for individual) in the year they got laid off. So a contemporary of mine was laid off in late 2008. In 2007 he made $200k base (most people in our profession have a base salary in the $150k - $250k range) and somewhere in the low 7 figures for a bonus. (I am not sure the exact number I am assuming it was in the $2m - $5m range). However in 2008 when he got laid off he only made $200k because he didn't get a bonus. So he is eligible for COBRA benefits. Even though he has made soemwhere from $2m - $5m total comp (plus stock) every year since 2003. So we are subsidizing a millionaire's health care. WTH??? (I will search the final bill for the text later today...I am assuming this wasn't taken out of the last draft which hadn't been written when I wrote my post)

This is the stuff that could have been refined if there was more time to go through the bill. The point is we just spent $1t with about 12days of debate. But instead of a thread analyzing the contents of the bill you make a thread solely to take a shot at republicans. That is exactly why America gets screwed by politicians, because instead of aggressively focusing on their officials they put more energy debating the other side for the sake of proving their side is better.

Your response is exactly what I mean. I don't like the bill and point out issues with it so I must be listening to kooks...even though I am a Harvard Business School educated senior finance professional who has invested money in every major country in the world and who can hold his own with just about anybody when it comes to money/finanace/economics. Trust me, I am no slouch on this stuff!

My goal isn't to prove the guy I voted for is right (I voted for Obama). My goal is to point out that you cannot borrow your way out of debt and that if you are going to borrow over $1t every penny better be accounted for and it better lead to massive growth because if you don't then you are basically creating valueless growth.

Think about it like this. Most people are noting that they bill cost $1t (which is really aggressive because it assumes these new programs aren't permanant which we know they will be) and Obama is saying it will create/save 4m new jobs...they are then doing the analysis that that is cost of $250k per per/capital GDP (or $175k/job assuming income if 70% of GDP) . While that analysis is kinda shorthand and not exact it is a good way to think about the burden you are putting on the country when the average income is in the 50k range. When you are going to put a burden that is 3x the average income on the country every dollar better be accounted for.

This bill is a joke...and this is coming from a lifelong democrat. The economy will eventually recover but I willing to bet that this bill won't be the reason it does....


You said we have to jump start the economy but this bill isn't doing it. How do you jumpstart an economy with money that won't hit it for 18 months.

You also intimated that we should spend money on museums because the workers will spend money...but what growth does that create. So the government borrows money (with interest) and puts it into projects that don't create growth (like refurbing a museum) and then the workers spend that money on stuff that depreciates (like cars). But when it is all done what growth did it create. Just run through the math...you didn't create anything...you just borrowed money from one hand and moved it to the other hand. You are actually coming up short because you have interest on the money you borrowed but you aren't creating enough new money to pay that interest. That borrowed money didn't create anything that will hopefully lead to more growth in the future. If doing this kind of thing worked then the govenment should borrow a zillion dollars and just use it to pay people to dig and refill the same whole over and over again and keep moving money around that way...but it doesn't work. The only way borrowing this kind of money works is if you give someone the money and they create something that creates value.

No country has evered borrowed their way into prosperity...the US will be no different. That I am willing to bet on...

-TS

[resnor]

So much for not getting personal and hurling insults anymore...

[Play Action]

So much for not getting personal and hurling insults anymore...


Did you just get Owned in this thread??:)

[Sgt.Slaughter]

Did you just get Owned in this thread??:)

Yes the Marxist did...

[TheSphinx 2.0]

Quick Side-Note: You complain about the conservatives or congressman not having enough time to look through the bill. you know it reminds me of the 2-day debate they had about the US Patriot Act (passed by a Republican Congress and Presidency) that has nearly stripped every American citizen of their rights to privacy. But that has nothing to do with this thread.

But anyway please do your homework again...COBRA is for people who pay for health coverage from the employer however when they are terminated they can pay for that same health coverage up to 18 months after employment. The base rate for COBRA insurance per month is $1,000, so if you paid your employer for insurance approx $400 per month, the employer was fronting $600 for your monthly coverage.

So when you get terminated if you want coverage you have to pay $1000/month to keep your coverage. So what the stimulus package does now is cover 60% of the monthly cost (the premium the employer was previously paying) for the first 9 months of unemployment, after that 9 month grace period if you want to continue to getting that health care you must then pay the total monthly cost of $1000/month for the other 9 months. COBRA healthcare only works for 18 months or until you get another job. When you get another job you must sign up for your new employers insurance or your COBRA healthcare will be cancelled.

Just in case you don't believe that here are the facts...http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_cobra.HTML



You are a retard...you clearly say that an individual cannot make more than $125k to be eligible. Then you clearly say taht he made $200k this year and he's eligible for COBRA healthcare. NO!!! your an idiot. you just said that you cannot make more than $125k to be eligible and your friend made $200k...please use some common sense, i know its hard for you conservatives to do, at times. Better yet, all the the time.




Why didn't you do your job as a citizen and go threw the bill and acknowledge the mistakes that you felt your congressman should address?

The second part I agree with but thats clearly what we are doing on this thread. But you now what surprises me, the Republican base wanted tax cuts for small businesses and a cut on payroll taxes and less spending from the original bill and more money set aside for Education, less money for healthcare and removal of several intricate parts of the original bill. All of these were done. The Democratic majority changed this drastically to make things better for both sides but still the Republican's aren't happy. Please let me know what you would rather have in this bill?



This Harvard Business School thing, yea I would really like to see some credentials here. Not to doubt it but alot of members of this forum are claiming so many things that are totally false like dems being the main problem in this economy. But anyway I'm an econ guy too and you should know that Kuznit's theory is proving true at this very moment in regards to our economy. Oh you do know Kuznit's theory and curve right?

politically its not as if this economic downturn has happened under the new administration. I say we gave Bush the chance to do any and everything he wanted so we should at least give it a try and say either hey this thing really worked or hey this was a horrible bill. But unless you do something drastic in the short-term the long-term effects will possibly be worse...

Sigh...my contemporary has a wife and 2 daughters...his combined family incnome is less than $250. Just like my wife doesn't work outside the house (she is a stay at home mom with our now 3 kids) but we count my total income as family income (since we file jointly). You see how that works. But let's take your example and say his base salary was $120k but his bonus was in the low 7s. The point remains the same...if we had more time the bill could have been refined so that logic gaps like this stuff wouldn't be in there. This is where people with money create loopholes. We will pay our executives a base salary of $1, but a bonus of $20m. It isn't hard. The point is why am I subsidizing the healthcare of my contempory who should have a net worth in the millions.

I was making the same argument when we rushed into war...or when we rushed into the Patriot act. This has nothing to do with Obama to me. This has to do with my money. I don't care who is wasting it...I just don't want it to be wasted.

McMadden is right that the repubs didn't fight when Bush was wasting money...the dems did. Now the dems aren't fighting when Obama is wasting money...the repub are. The point is that our politicians seem to be constantly wasting money and only the opposing party seems to care. Doesn't that strike anyone but me as insane!

About the HBS thing...whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you. But I will say, I am not a Baker scholar but I didn't get any 3s...I went there when they still had a Janurary cohort (I wasn't one of them)...and when I went there you didn't have to disclose grades (awesome)...oh and when I went interviews weren't mandatory...I got in without one

You mentioned the Gina coefficent but I am not sure what that has to do with how the money is being spent.

The point remains that if you want to borrow $1t there better be a detailed debate about it so that we aren't wasting money. This is OUR MONEY. It is not free. Maybe all the money in the bill is being put to productive use but with so little debate on it we won't know until it is too late. It shouldn't be that way.

We only get one shot at this. Exactly how much money can we borrow from China until they say enough is enough. If this bill doesn't work then we are in for some even tougher times ahead. Forget the politics and think about your pocketbook. Obama will never have the political capital he has now. He will never be able to borrow this much money again in one shot so if this doesn't work then what do we do next. All I am asking is that we make sure we have the best bill possible for the type of risk we are taking. Why is that a bad thing???

You say that unless we do something drastic in the shorterm the longterm will be worse...can you prove that? That is what is called the politics of fear. Gimme all your money now and don't question it becuase if you don't really bad things will happen. Sounds like the Iraq war debate right.

I have been on this site for years (old take was TheSphinx) but when the site changed I couldn't sign up and fell off. Anybody who has been on here will tell you I am a lifelong democrat and have argued for most social programs (i.e. affirmative action, universal healtcare, higher minimum wages) but I unashamedely pro-life and pro-Bible. I was a harsh critic of Bush and torture and the Iraq war. Most of the time Sup, Rensor and I disagreed and were on the polar opposite side of the argument. This time we agree. To me I don't care where the good or bad ideas come from...I only care that they are good or bad ideas.

The bill is 700 pages of legal and political speak. There is no way a citizen can go through it and understand it. That is why it needed to be debated in public so that those who want to be informed can be. By doing it over the weekend in a form that no normal person can read they basically have done it in secrecy. If this bill was enacted today or 2 weeks from today will make no difference to the economy but it would make a huge difference as to what was allowed to be put in there...to think otherwise is naive.

-TS

[TheRealist]

Sphinx,

Please check your PM's.

Thanks.

[resnor]

Uh, the bill wasn't available for civilians to read either, geniuses (not you, Sphinx:D).

I didn't get "owned" in this thread. The guy who thinks that capitalism=Marxism is owned just by thinking that. Capitalism is not Marxism.

[SUPDOG]

The Stimulus bill passed, and thanks to the Majority Dems in both houses we are on our way. I laugh when Steel was nominated and won the RNC chair, this will fracture the party even more.

These are the same clowns that did not bat an eye when Bush was spending like crazy, now when a Dem is in charge, woe wis our children. Give me a ****en break!

Actually, I think the GOP is finally waking up to realize that dem ideology led us into this mess, and they are letting Obama make his own bed. I think I agree with Analog on this. Twice in a week.

It won't matter much, democrats are very good at pointing the finger, and not taking responsibility for their actions. It has been entertaining to watch NB and this Sgt. dude try to point out that the GOP "didn't stop" the dem debacles of CRA, and the subprime lending. Yes, in the end the GOP is supposed to stop the train wreck. THAT is their argument. No, nevermind who got the train of destruction rolling, in the end its the GOP who is responsible.

Yes, now, let's fix the dem created problem, with more Dem solutions. Brilliant!

i also think it is humorous that the one individual who doesn't comprehend the differences between marxism and capitalism is attempting to give lectures to anyone. He is as cluessless about the war on terror, Geneva, and an understanding on what actual torture is.

At least he likes the best franchise in NFL history though. :)


But IMO, Micheal Steele is an excellent pick for RNC. Although, I haven't checked too deeply into him, I have watched him on television several times. He seems pretty solid, in the things that make for a solid candidate.

I can't wait for the cheapshots to call me a racist, simply because I like an african american politician.

This sgt. dude is as low as I've seen in a while, I would guess he would find a way to do it.

You know, the typical " you are only "saying" you like Steele, because he is black, and you are trying to hide your racist tendencies towards Obama"

Yada, yada........Got Crickits?

When you live in La-la, you make your own reality, and if someone disagrees with that la-la reality, they are suddenly racists, etc. Boring, time for bed.

Good-day!

[SUPDOG]

I feel you Sphinx...i didn't look at it the same way you stated at first.

And I wasn't refering to the Gena co-efficient. I was referring to Kuznit's theory that economically things have to get extremely bad before they can ever get better. like so media outlets will say and even the WH press secretary said it today, that things will keep getting worse in the short-term but will better in the long-term aspect of economic growth/stability.



Why don't you actually read a book (you ignorant conservative pig) and you will find out that Marxism is the initial ideaology behind capitalism.

Come on bro, be a man! You jumped down the throat of this guy, you were in the wrong, again, and all you got is "I feel you"? Own up, instead of squirrming out, got it?

HE is now referencing Gibbs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

Yeah, you keep waitin' for those programs to turn into golden eggs. Yeah, let's pump money into big projects that will lead to nothing but......(um, no let's just stop at "will lead to NOTHING"!

Pretty soon you'll be a janitor at Nancy's Mickey Mouse farm!!

Puppet. Obamabot! Goofball.

[Sgt.Slaughter]

Actually, I think the GOP is finally waking up to realize that dem ideology led us into this mess, and they are letting Obama make his own bed. I think I agree with Analog on this. Twice in a week.

It won't matter much, democrats are very good at pointing the finger, and not taking responsibility for their actions. It has been entertaining to watch NB and this Sgt. dude try to point out that the GOP "didn't stop" the dem debacles of CRA, and the subprime lending. Yes, in the end the GOP is supposed to stop the train wreck. THAT is their argument. No, nevermind who got the train of destruction rolling, in the end its the GOP who is responsible.

Yes, now, let's fix the dem created problem, with more Dem solutions. Brilliant!

i also think it is humorous that the one individual who doesn't comprehend the differences between marxism and capitalism is attempting to give lectures to anyone. He is as cluessless about the war on terror, Geneva, and an understanding on what actual torture is.
At least he likes the best franchise in NFL history though. :)


But IMO, Micheal Steele is an excellent pick for RNC. Although, I haven't checked too deeply into him, I have watched him on television several times. He seems pretty solid, in the things that make for a solid candidate.

I can't wait for the cheapshots to call me a racist, simply because I like an african american politician.

This sgt. dude is as low as I've seen in a while, I would guess he would find a way to do it.

You know, the typical " you are only "saying" you like Steele, because he is black, and you are trying to hide your racist tendencies towards Obama"

Yada, yada........Got Crickits?

When you live in La-la, you make your own reality, and if someone disagrees with that la-la reality, they are suddenly racists, etc. Boring, time for bed.

Good-day!

Yea, im pretty low but i wouldnt call u a racist unless you actually showed it...

And how come I found several forms of marxism being the initial form of capitalism but nobody has found any information to dispute that? Find links and prove me wrong...

I found the articles about torture and posted a link about what the US was doing in GITMO and what the Geneva Convention says...you conservatives have not found anything to dispute the facts.

I found articles about Bush admitting he knew and approved the torture...and you conservatives have not found anything to dispute my facts.

And for the record Dems and Repubs (Pubics) are both good at pointing the finger...i just don't see how the dems are completely the problem of the economic downturn. housing market...put that on us. What about everything else? The Pubics didnt have anything to do with this mess?

[Sgt.Slaughter]

Come on bro, be a man! You jumped down the throat of this guy, you were in the wrong, again, and all you got is "I feel you"? Own up, instead of squirrming out, got it?

HE is now referencing Gibbs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

Yeah, you keep waitin' for those programs to turn into golden eggs. Yeah, let's pump money into big projects that will lead to nothing but......(um, no let's just stop at "will lead to NOTHING"!

Pretty soon you'll be a janitor at Nancy's Mickey Mouse farm!!Puppet. Obamabot! Goofball.


I was in the wrong? okay :rolleyes: He clarified his statement so why should I keep taking shots if he clarified his stance...

Actually I'm making a good amount of money working in the Democratic House of Representatives Office at for the Florida State capital in Tallahassee. I travel across the country almost every week and I'm still in school and a candidate for my MBA...you can keep your janitorial job for the next loser....(um, no you can keep it for yourself!!!)

[McMadden]

Uh, the bill wasn't available for civilians to read either, geniuses (not you, Sphinx:D).

I didn't get "owned" in this thread. The guy who thinks that capitalism=Marxism is owned just by thinking that. Capitalism is not Marxism.
Yeah you got owned! The Bill that the House sent to the Senate was on the huffington post in PDF format. How did i know this over a week ago? I googled it!:eek: Yup I'll take that compliment! I'm a GENIUS! :p Unlike this genius here => http://www.maddentips.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122196 This genius swore up and down that the Dems purposely made this file this way so that you could not use the search function. Really now? Me and a fellow co-worker, also a retired military wanted to see what the Bill had in it for the Military. Right Wing Radio said that there was like only 1 - 2 Billion in it for the military, we saw way more than that in the Bill we read.

TheSpinx,

The reason why I asked you to show me the line item in the Stimulus Bill where Millionaires were getting paid Health Care was because it didn't pass the smell test for me.

I am glad the Sarge cleared that up where you mentioned the COBRA plan. I could go further but my dad use to get on my case about ASSuming. j/k :p

Which brings me to this conclusion, Obama has let the Rushes, the Dobbs (CNN) :p the Becks, the Cavoto's (sp) mis-inform the public! And, some of the very people in this thread!

Ewww the Bill is not on-line! WRONG!!!!! Use you search engines Mr Ill-informed! (Noticed I didn't use the other I word, LOL)

Millionaires are being provided Health care in that Bill. WRONG !!!!!! Again kudos to the Sarge!

Read the Bill for yourself.

Here are a few helpful links from an economist => http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Economic_Stimulus_House_Plan_012109.pdf


http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/default.asp?src=economy_homepage

Back on OP topic:
This thread was just my thoughts on how the Elephants are pandering for the black vote with the piss poor selection of Steele.
The voting record on this Stimulus Bill is as follows, Liberal Democrats and Conservative Democrats vote Yea, Liberal Republicans, and Conservative Republicans in the House voted no.

Which leads me more to believe that no matter what, Conservative talk radio can't say that this Bill is a Liberal Bill when Liberal Republican voted against it and Conservative Democrats voted for it. Now go ****en figure!

.

[theanalogkid]

Actually, I think the GOP is finally waking up to realize that dem ideology led us into this mess, and they are letting Obama make his own bed. I think I agree with Analog on this. Twice in a week.

It won't matter much, democrats are very good at pointing the finger, and not taking responsibility for their actions. It has been entertaining to watch NB and this Sgt. dude try to point out that the GOP "didn't stop" the dem debacles of CRA, and the subprime lending. Yes, in the end the GOP is supposed to stop the train wreck. THAT is their argument. No, nevermind who got the train of destruction rolling, in the end its the GOP who is responsible.

Yes, now, let's fix the dem created problem, with more Dem solutions. Brilliant!



You keep talking about the CRA causing the subprime meltdown, but most of the problems that occurred came out of institutions that WERE NOT REGULATED by the CRA.

Subprime lending exploded between 2004 and 2006, after the SEC changed the Net Capital Rule which required institutions to hold a certain amount of money in reserves to cover potiential losses. Guess who wanted that rule changed? Large investment banks such as Goldman Sachs, who was then headed by Henry Paulson. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/business/03sec.html The same man who was charged with the TARP money, was the same one who helped create this mess.

And no it just wasn't Paulson's fault either, there are numerous fingers to point ranging from the Federal Reserve to holding interests rates are artificially low levels from 2001-2002, which made the rational investor look for higher yielding investment vehicles (Hey, we can get a 30% return on these mortgage backed securities) , to the credit rating agencies such as S&P and Moody's who told these institutions how to get high credit ratings on these mortgage backed securities. These securities were rated as investment-grade when they turned out to be a pile of junk.

Congress has a whole takes blame in this, not either party, they are both responsible. Most politicians are scum, I don't see why you are trying to defend any of them. You can go look up the voting record for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 99 and find out it passed with an overwhelming majority of Congress.

So before you keep making erroneous claims, why not actually research the issue. Believing what you see on TV is not a good way to understand what happend.

[Nevada_Ballin]

So much for not getting personal and hurling insults anymore...

agree... try to stay on topic guys, not on each other. You're all better than that. If you're going to have an intellectual conversation (which you need to have if you're going to talk about this kind of thing), then keep it at an intellctual level. See my sig if you need a guide.

[VG_Bert]

Had to delete a couple of posts already. Would like to keep the thread unlocked so play nicely everybody :)

[bk1998]

I stopped paying attention to anything P-Nasty (Sgt. S) had to say about economics when he couldn't grasp the notion that US Soldiers in Iraq were not living on the local economy and that they were not eating their meals at McDonalds and the Cheesecake Factory in Baghdad.

[Sgt.Slaughter]

I stopped paying attention to anything P-Nasty (Sgt. S) had to say about economics when he couldn't grasp the notion that US Soldiers in Iraq were not living on the local economy and that they were not eating their meals at McDonalds and the Cheesecake Factory in Baghdad.


Sidenote: Those local merchants that the US soldiers were purchasing items from in Iraq were not US merchants but merchants from Italy, Germany and other European countries. So where is the benefit for the American businesses?

and you clearly didnt know that this War in Iraq is another contributor to our currently horrible economic status, so who should we not listen too about economics?

[Sgt.Slaughter]

Had to delete a couple of posts already. Would like to keep the thread unlocked so play nicely everybody :)

My apologies Bert and NB...i got a bit too carried away with the crap earlier.

[bk1998]

you clearly didnt know that this War in Iraq is another contributor to our currently horrible economic status, so who should we not listen too about economics?

Yeah, I know absolutely nothing about the financial impact of GWOT spending. :rolleyes:

As I said... I stopped paying attention to anything you have to say about Economics a long time ago, P-Nasty.

[Sgt.Slaughter]

Yeah, I know absolutely nothing about the financial impact of GWOT spending. :rolleyes:

As I said... I stopped paying attention to anything you have to say about Economics a long time ago, P-Nasty.

Then what's your point? If your not chiming in on the subject then keep it moving...you obviously have nothing substancial to do with your life if your letting everyone know that you stopped paying attention to anything I have to say regarding economics. thats fine. Thats your prerogative. Get a life!!!

[bk1998]

Then what's your point?

My point was very clear... was it not? Does it really need to be stated again?

[Sgt.Slaughter]

My point was very clear... was it not? Does it really need to be stated again?

No, please don't because I wouldn't want you explaining your remedial self to me again...

You wanna come in here and throw my name out tryna blast me about why u don't wanna listen to me, why you dont pay attention to anything I have to say :rolleyes: well you d*mn sure took the time out to read what I posted and you have nothing to dispute besides our differences on the War and Economy. So fine it cost you nothing, pay me no mind. Get a life. Better yet go play with yourself. Do something entertaining with your life because your starting to bore me.

[bk1998]

A few had called your "knowledge" into question in this very thread.

I've thrown in my opinion on your economic knowledge as well.

That's it, and that's all.

No need to get bent out of shape, P-Nasty.

[Sgt.Slaughter]

A few had called your "knowledge" into question in this very thread.

I've thrown in my opinion on your economic knowledge as well.

That's it, and that's all.

No need to get bent out of shape, P-Nasty.

Bent out of shape never...called my knowledge into question, huh:rolleyes:, yea especially when everything I have posted has been back with facts, quotes and articles to dispute them questioning me. I've stated the facts and everytime I do they tend to change the subject and find some intricate part they don't agree with...it's cool cuz Google is a friend of mine.

[dsteve]

Question how did the Dem's block Bush from stopping the housing crisis in 2004 or 2005, as you suggest, when the Dem's didn't have majority until 2006? And every piece of legislation Bush wanted he got from 2001 until 2006.

Marxism:









No. I don't want you to conform to my beliefs because thats not the purpose. I would just hope that some conservatives would have an open mind to liberal beliefs just like some, well i do, have a open mind to conservative beliefs.

I don't agree with everything that Obama proposes. Like my personal opinion is that this stimulus package should go to the American people. If you put an extra that $737 Billion split between the 100 million citizens. 200 billion dollars set aside would be $2,000 for each of us. And you can't tell me the American people spending $2,000 won't boost the economy in a heartbeat. There would a slight increase in investments or people paying off a portion of bad debt, or catching up on bills.

I don't agree with universal health care but a supplement of affordable health care should be provided to needy citizens (children, unemployeed, elderly, students, etc.)

I don't agree with every issue that comes up however I am at least willing to give it a chance to see if it does produce something. Unlike the conservative base which would rather have Bush for a third-term i.e. McCain.

We are arguing over ideology. Libs want to control your life. Conservatives may want you to control your own life; but can you honestly say today that you are better off now than you were 10 years ago? Was the economy better off? Were there jobs?

The thing that erks me about conservatives is that they feel they do nothing wrong. If Bush is in office for 8 years and the conservatives control the House and Senate for the last 16 years but the Dem's take control of the House and Senate 2 years ago, then all the policies the Dem's put forward have put us in this credit and housing crisis??? Thats what the conservative base says and it makes no sense.

The problems were there before the Dems took control but they have escalated under there leadership because nobody could envision how horrible the crisis would be. 5 years ago nobody said that buying a home would be the riskiest thing you could ever do with your money. No. It was looked at as the finest form of building wealth because houses appreciate in value. Bulls**t!!!

you would think that after a long campaign year where the conservative base continuously used scare tactics to try to win an election (Obama not being an American citizen, Marxism, radical friends, radical beliefs, radical view points) after all that failed you would think they would take a different approach but no you all will be sitting here whining and complaining for the next 4, hopefully 8, years about policies the Obama administration put in place. Well im happy to know that because we have been feeling this way for the last 8 years.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

Conservatives are unhappy:D:D:D


Did you even read what you tried to pass off as a link to marxism? COMMUNISM is the OPPOSITE of CAPITALISM. Marism calls for COMMUNISM which is related to socialism. The link between the two in what you qouted is that there has to be a lower "class" in a capitalistic society to "rise" up and call for a socialistic/communistic form of government. The "struggle between capitalism and the workers". GET A ****ING CLUE

The new deal didn't work when we were in a depression, what makes you think spending even more at a faster rate will work now? The bill was jammed through and rushed so nobody would be able to read it. Douche bag Obama sold you all fear, "do this now or we're in trouble", and you ate it up real good.
There are ear marks and things nut jobs like pelossi wanted for years in this bill because theyre SNEAKING IT ALL IN UNDER A FALSE PRETENSE. Order from chaos my friend, order from chaos. They distract you with bull**** like our economy and throw in all kinds of nonsense that they hope you wont notice.


Here are historical facts. Spending like this doesn't help during the type of economic climate we have right now.(see the great depression and the new deal) The truth is that either tax cuts/smaller government or unfortunatley war would help our economy.


The rest of this post is also stupid as ****. Giving people 2,000 dollars? Sounds like a bush tax cut to me just on a much grander scale. Rebate check like that don't work either, it needs to be a permanate tax cut not just a one time thing. Other stupid comments like mccain would have been bushs third term and blah blah blah I'm not even getting into because its been beaten to death.

Heres what you should do. Go on youtube and look up "esoteric agenda". It's long and broken down into ten minute clips but pay close attention to the parts about our current government and tell me how much it fits. Government is not your friend, I promise you that buddy. Both parties are taking us to the same place (one world government) but the DEMS will get us there that much faster. Both parties actually work together if you ask me, setting each other up for the next one. IE bad bush term leads to a socialist like obama getting elected.


Open up your mind, ignore the chaos and try to find where theyre are gonna **** you in the ***.

[theanalogkid]

Did you even read what you tried to pass off as a link to marxism? COMMUNISM is the OPPOSITE of CAPITALISM.

Actually socialism is the opposite of capitalism. Socialism involves the government taking over businesses and running them. In Communism there is no government to do so.

Marx predicted Communism would take over after Capitalism and Socialism failed.

[sanantonio]

The wheels on the bus go round and round,
round and round, round and round the wheels on the bus....................hits a huge pot hole
blammo!!!! The bus flips repeatedly as bodies fly....
more after this commercial break!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k92fTDReHg

[SUPDOG]

The wheels on the bus go round and round,
round and round, round and round the wheels on the bus....................hits a huge pot hole
blammo!!!! The bus flips repeatedly as bodies fly....
more after this commercial break!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k92fTDReHg

What's up baby? Its callin' you back huh?

Evander Hollyfield? Is that your inspiration? I likey! I missed you! Lots of beat downs comin yo!:):)

[sanantonio]

What's up baby? Its callin' you back huh?

Evander Hollyfield? Is that your inspiration? I likey! I missed you! Lots of beat downs comin yo!:):)

I'll drop in from time to time to just add my two cents and some sanity ;).

[dsteve]

Then what's your point? If your not chiming in on the subject then keep it moving...you obviously have nothing substancial to do with your life if your letting everyone know that you stopped paying attention to anything I have to say regarding economics. thats fine. Thats your prerogative. Get a life!!!



lol because what you have said about economics is complete horse ****. Marxism and capitalism are not the same thing, in fact they are opposites. The ideas behind marxism rely on a communal system of economics, ie communism or socialism where everything is for the common good....2 each their need and ability and all that rhetoric.Hell, if you could read AND comprehend english, what you qouted earlier directly says the opposite of what youre proclaiming. if anyone got owned its your high school social studies/history/econ teacher.

[dsteve]

Actually socialism is the opposite of capitalism. Socialism involves the government taking over businesses and running them. In Communism there is no government to do so.

Marx predicted Communism would take over after Capitalism and Socialism failed.


its the opposite in terms of free market vs govenmental control or a community pot of money where what you work for isnt actually yours anymore.

[resnor]

No, no, no...dSteve...Marxism and capitalism ARE the same. That's why for so long, America was so alike countries who practiced Marxist principles.

Truly, though, Slaughter, you show a complete lack of understanding of economics if you truly believe that capitalism and Marxism are the same.

Capitalism is basically a struggle between buyer and seller. Now, you could have some sort of left-wing kook who tried to argue that the sellers are rich, and the buyers are poor, therefore you have a struggle between the lower class and the upper class, but that wouldn't really hold water. The lower class could go sell things if they want...and rich people also buy things.