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theanalogkid
04-09-2009, 12:38 PM
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush
In Warrantless Wiretapping Case, Obama DOJ's New Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's
Commentary by Tim Jones

We had hoped this would go differently.

Friday evening, in a motion to dismiss Jewel v. NSA, EFF's litigation against the National Security Agency for the warrantless wiretapping of countless Americans, the Obama Administration's made two deeply troubling arguments.

First, they argued, exactly as the Bush Administration did on countless occasions, that the state secrets privilege requires the court to dismiss the issue out of hand. They argue that simply allowing the case to continue "would cause exceptionally grave harm to national security." As in the past, this is a blatant ploy to dismiss the litigation without allowing the courts to consider the evidence.

It's an especially disappointing argument to hear from the Obama Administration. As a candidate, Senator Obama lamented that the Bush Administration "invoked a legal tool known as the 'state secrets' privilege more than any other previous administration to get cases thrown out of civil court." He was right then, and we're dismayed that he and his team seem to have forgotten.

Sad as that is, it's the Department Of Justice's second argument that is the most pernicious. The DOJ claims that the U.S. Government is completely immune from litigation for illegal spying — that the Government can never be sued for surveillance that violates federal privacy statutes.

This is a radical assertion that is utterly unprecedented. No one — not the White House, not the Justice Department, not any member of Congress, and not the Bush Administration — has ever interpreted the law this way.

Previously, the Bush Administration has argued that the U.S. possesses "sovereign immunity" from suit for conducting electronic surveillance that violates the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). However, FISA is only one of several laws that restrict the government's ability to wiretap. The Obama Administration goes two steps further than Bush did, and claims that the US PATRIOT Act also renders the U.S. immune from suit under the two remaining key federal surveillance laws: the Wiretap Act and the Stored Communications Act. Essentially, the Obama Adminstration has claimed that the government cannot be held accountable for illegal surveillance under any federal statutes.

Again, the gulf between Candidate Obama and President Obama is striking. As a candidate, Obama ran promising a new era of government transparency and accountability, an end to the Bush DOJ's radical theories of executive power, and reform of the PATRIOT Act. But, this week, Obama's own Department Of Justice has argued that, under the PATRIOT Act, the government shall be entirely unaccountable for surveilling Americans in violation of its own laws.

This isn't change we can believe in. This is change for the worse.

For further reading, we suggest Salon.com's Glenn Greenwald and The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder.

meet the new boss, the same as the old boss

SUPDOG
04-09-2009, 12:46 PM
I will now speak on the behalf of Nevad ballin'

1. Bush started it all.

2. It's the DOJ and not Obama directely.

Therefore Obama is still the Messiah.




Bobble, bobble.................

conviction
04-09-2009, 04:04 PM
This is rediculous. The government needs to be held accountable for their actions. The bureaucracy should not determine its own sovereign immunity. Big Brother is watching us all...

Gtrght77
04-09-2009, 04:37 PM
I will now speak on the behalf of Nevad ballin'

1. Bush started it all.

2. It's the DOJ and not Obama directely.

Therefore Obama is still the Messiah.




Bobble, bobble.................

So you are in agreement with Obama here, since you agreed when Bush did it?

SUPDOG
04-09-2009, 04:51 PM
So you are in agreement with Obama here, since you agreed when Bush did it?

No, I disagree with Obama here. He wants to invade privacy. Bush wanted to stop terrorism.

What about you? Any credible thoughts on Obama's actions thus far?

Gtrght77
04-09-2009, 05:01 PM
No, I disagree with Obama here. He wants to invade privacy. Bush wanted to stop terrorism.

What about you? Any credible thoughts on Obama's actions thus far?

Wow, Of course you do.

I disagree with them both on this but the Patriot act has to be removed before anything can be done.

You better be carefull I am sure they are listening to you, being the fanatic you are.

SUPDOG
04-09-2009, 05:54 PM
Wow, Of course you do.

I disagree with them both on this but the Patriot act has to be removed before anything can be done.

You better be carefull I am sure they are listening to you, being the fanatic you are.

Just so we are clear-- I think it is a more accurate statement that you despised Bush's policy when it came to wiretapping.

Now Obama appears to want to take things a BIG step further and now you simply, "disagree". Irony.


I am glad to see you ""go after" Obama though:rolleyes:....I didn't think you had it in you. ;)

Puppet. :)

sanantonio
04-09-2009, 07:18 PM
Just so we are clear-- I think it is a more accurate statement that you despised Bush's policy when it came to wiretapping.

Now Obama appears to want to take things a BIG step further and now you simply, "disagree". Irony.


I am glad to see you ""go after" Obama though:rolleyes:....I didn't think you had it in you. ;)

Puppet. :)

We're all sheep Sup whether it's Bush or Obama plus any erosion of civil liberties regardless of the reasoning is flat out wrong. The exception being mass chaos and carnage to which there would need to be marshall law, short of that stay out ma bizness ;).

Gtrght77
04-09-2009, 08:03 PM
Just so we are clear-- I think it is a more accurate statement that you despised Bush's policy when it came to wiretapping.

Now Obama appears to want to take things a BIG step further and now you simply, "disagree". Irony.


I am glad to see you ""go after" Obama though:rolleyes:....I didn't think you had it in you. ;)

Puppet. :)

I am against warentless wiretappings no matter who is doing it. After 8 years of Bush I am jaded to things that used to make me so angry. I feel the US is already on a path to no return and it wont matter who leads us really.



Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna see it go right down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.


The Reverend Maynard

theanalogkid
04-10-2009, 03:27 PM
No, I disagree with Obama here. He wants to invade privacy. Bush wanted to stop terrorism.

What about you? Any credible thoughts on Obama's actions thus far?

Yes too bad it's unconstitutional in either case. Just because you love the security nanny state the government is developing, doesn't make it a good thing.

If George Bush was making these same arguments Obama's DOJ was making, you'd be championing it, regardless of how much bigger it would make the government.

Fact is, there was nothing wrong with how warrants were obtained to wiretap before Bush started his program.

Oh and BTW, if Bush wanted to use warrantless wiretapping to stop terrorists, why did it begin 7 months before 9/11 (http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/10/nsa-asked-for-p.html)