The Ten Cannots!

[SUPDOG]

THE TEN "CANNOTS"
"You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer.
You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."
Rev. William J.H. Boetcke


Why is this so difficult for the left to comprehend?

Laziness and government dependence will destroy ones ability to truly live. Truth.

[SUPDOG]

THE TEN "CANNOTS"
"You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer.
You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."
Rev. William J.H. Boetcke


Why is this so difficult for the left to comprehend?

Laziness and government dependence will destroy ones ability to truly live. Truth.

How ironic. People appear to be too lazy to respond. :eek:

[Nevada_Ballin]

How ironic. People appear to be too lazy to respond. :eek:

It's not because of laziness.....


.

[SUPDOG]

It's not because of laziness.....


.

Djo you agree with these?

[allend]

I'm still waiting on the first person who can show me where the Prez took their money and gave it to someone else. I hear all of the cryn and stuff about it happening but I don't have any examples. I'll use myself for example. Last year I cleared about $65,000 and I'm on pace to do a little bit better than that this year. My last two checks have actually had less taxes (fed) taken out. But yea, I would say that I agree with the 10 statements that you posted but I don't see how they are applicable to what's actually going on. Now I will admit that I am concerned about the amount of borrowed money that we're spending. But, if you want to be honest about the situation, this problem didn't start in January. Lastly, I don't really think it's the Federal gov't that people are getting squeezed by. I really think it's happening on a state level. Home owner's are about to get killed by local gov't. We all know that's who gets to foot the bill for any short coming's in the budget.

[SUPDOG]

I'm still waiting on the first person who can show me where the Prez took their money and gave it to someone else. I hear all of the cryn and stuff about it happening but I don't have any examples. I'll use myself for example. Last year I cleared about $65,000 and I'm on pace to do a little bit better than that this year. My last two checks have actually had less taxes (fed) taken out. But yea, I would say that I agree with the 10 statements that you posted but I don't see how they are applicable to what's actually going on. Now I will admit that I am concerned about the amount of borrowed money that we're spending. But, if you want to be honest about the situation, this problem didn't start in January. Lastly, I don't really think it's the Federal gov't that people are getting squeezed by. I really think it's happening on a state level. Home owner's are about to get killed by local gov't. We all know that's who gets to foot the bill for any short coming's in the budget.


Its comin baby, one way or another its comin'.

Big screen tv's, Ps3's, free food, "free" health care. All for those who don't want to do diddly.

Where is the money going to come from?

Other people who make "too much" money according to Obama, nevada, gt, Nancy Pelosi.

Higher taxes and an inflation pie! Just around that corner.

Anyway, do you agree with the 10 cannots?

[allend]

Its comin baby, one way or another its comin'.

Big screen tv's, Ps3's, free food, "free" health care. All for those who don't want to do diddly.

Where is the money going to come from?

Other people who make "too much" money according to Obama, nevada, gt, Nancy Pelosi.

Higher taxes and an inflation pie! Just around that corner.

Anyway, do you agree with the 10 cannots?

I said in my reply that I agreed w/the list but I didn't see how it was applicable to what was ACTUALLY going on right now. Not "it's coming".....Just what's actually happened. Like I said before, we pretty much have the same concerns about the borrow and spend tactics that are taking place. But, sometimes you have to things you wouldn't normally do to get out of a jam. And I am very reserved when it comes to passing judgement b/c I have NO qualifications when it comes to economics. Secondly, I don't agree with the attacks that have been going on when the guy hasn't even raised taxes on anyone as of yet. He's actually given a tax break to middle class workers. I guess I'm just missing the point that most repubs seem to be trying to make b/c most of their talk is based on what's "going" to happen as opposed to what's "actually" happening. And if repubs were so accurate when it comes to predicting financial outcomes we wouldn't be in this mess right now. There's enough blame for every side to have their share so lets all sit down and eat the pie together!!!

[Nevada_Ballin]

Djo you agree with these?

not really.... just drummed up b.s. imo.

[SUPDOG]

not really.... just drummed up b.s. imo.

Spoken like a true liberal who is "entitled".

Nevermind.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Spoken like a true liberal who is "entitled".

Nevermind.

entitled to my opinion, damn right :)

.

[conviction]

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."

We are simply ignoring the economic system which allowed men to make lives for themselves and that willpower alone drove America to the top.

I'm bracing for contact so to speak for the wave of benefits going to people who don't earn them. It makes me angry. I'm gonna go into the job market 4 years from now after college and when I'm successful I don't want to be stripped of what I earned because of rediculous taxes just to see the money spent on government bailouts and the injecting the money into uplifting people who don't work as hard as I do.

The government has no right to do it. Government needs to just do its job correctly instead of trying to do everything.

[SUPDOG]

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."

We are simply ignoring the economic system which allowed men to make lives for themselves and that willpower alone drove America to the top.

I'm bracing for contact so to speak for the wave of benefits going to people who don't earn them. It makes me angry. I'm gonna go into the job market 4 years from now after college and when I'm successful I don't want to be stripped of what I earned because of rediculous taxes just to see the money spent on government bailouts and the injecting the money into uplifting people who don't work as hard as I do.

The government has no right to do it. Government needs to just do its job correctly instead of trying to do everything.

People only think about those evil rich $200,000+ guys and say, "they make too much and should help us out". They fail to understand/care that those 200,000 business owners provide WORK for me, my family, my employees, their families, the people who I buy materials from, those who I buy equipment from, their employees, their families, the people who I advertise with, that I buy office supplies and computer software from, their employees, and their families, etc., etc. ,etc.

It makes me a bit sick when I hear liberals who DO NOTHING take joy in playing the class envy game, because they know "for now" that their "free-ride" is about to get all that more easier.

It is what their country "can do for them".

Nice. Way to "live life".

Nevada's response= a response of a dead beat IMO.

I worked 10 hours today, and I haven't even begun my season in all reality.

Probably 12-14 tomorrow. At least I know that I am using my God given abilities to live as opposed to using my energies to seek how not to live.

[conviction]

People only think about those evil rich $200,000+ guys and say, "they make too much and should help us out". They fail to understand/care that those 200,000 business owners provide WORK for me, my family, my employees, their families, the people who I buy materials from, those who I buy equipment from, their employees, their families, the people who I advertise with, that I buy office supplies and computer software from, their employees, and their families, etc., etc. ,etc.

It makes me a bit sick when I hear liberals who DO NOTHING take joy in playing the class envy game, because they know "for now" that their "free-ride" is about to get all that more easier.

It is what their country "can do for them".

Nice. Way to "live life".

Nevada's response= a response of a dead beat IMO.

I worked 10 hours today, and I haven't even begun my season in all reality.

Probably 12-14 tomorrow. At least I know that I am using my God given abilities to live as opposed to using my energies to seek how not to live.

I just don't understand the liberal mentality. The American Dream is a privilege which you have to work for not a right. I think it's a travesty that we elected a man who does not represent traditional American values. I want the old America back where there was still nobility in America.

I see it like this

Liberals: Steal money from the noble and just give it away to people

conservatives: Let people WORK for their money

I don't see why people wouldn't prefer the latter where YOUR LIFE is in your own hands. I guess some people can't handle the responsibility.

[theanalogkid]

Funny how none of this stuff ever comes out under a Republican President specifically 1,6, and 8.

[SUPDOG]

Funny how none of this stuff ever comes out under a Republican President specifically 1,6, and 8.

Funny how you deflect from holding your government's feet to the fire.


It's always , "well bush did it"

Yawny.

The scale is much larger than anything Bush. I know you are smart enough to recognize this reality.

[theanalogkid]

The scale is much larger than anything Bush. I know you are smart enough to recognize this reality.

So then it's okay that Bush spend large amount of money, because Obama's spending a lot more? That doesn't follow. Both are actually wrong, and no amount of rationalization will change that.

All I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy that Republicans are somehow for smaller government and less spending, which is nothing but a lie that people for some reason keep telling themselves is true.

[allend]

Again, here I am reading thru the thread and I'm seeing people talking about the prez "taking" money from one group and "giving" it to another but nobody can quote one example where their money has been taken. Its funny to hear people keep saying this over and over b/c I actually think it plays to a certain way of thinking that a %age of repubs seem to have. I'm reading about the good ole america where people worked hard and had to earn their money. Ok. What's changed? Who's check has come up short? Where are the facts that these claims are based on? But I guess in today's times you can just sit around the fire pit w/ur marshmellows and just make up stuff.
(redneck voice) "Yea that Obama is just gonna take from "us" and give it to "them".
(voice #2) Ur right bubba!! He's a Socialist!!

Someone in this thread said, "I miss the good ole America". Some of you guys are a trip. Has your check came up short yet? Did you pay more taxes this year? Is anyone going to base any claims on any facts in this thread? I mean we're on page 2 and I still have not seen any facts yet.....

[allend]

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."

We are simply ignoring the economic system which allowed men to make lives for themselves and that willpower alone drove America to the top.

I'm bracing for contact so to speak for the wave of benefits going to people who don't earn them. It makes me angry. I'm gonna go into the job market 4 years from now after college and when I'm successful I don't want to be stripped of what I earned because of rediculous taxes just to see the money spent on government bailouts and the injecting the money into uplifting people who don't work as hard as I do.

The government has no right to do it. Government needs to just do its job correctly instead of trying to do everything.

If you come out of college in four years and the gov't is still bailing out companies 9 times out of 10 you wont have to worry about being taxed heavy b/c there wont be any job for you to get! Secondly, what has the prez done that has you bracing for this "WAVE" of benefits going to people who don't earn them?

[SUPDOG]

So then it's okay that Bush spend large amount of money, because Obama's spending a lot more? That doesn't follow. Both are actually wrong, and no amount of rationalization will change that.

All I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy that Republicans are somehow for smaller government and less spending, which is nothing but a lie that people for some reason keep telling themselves is true.

a true fiscal conservative is for smaller government and less spending. Bush was not a true fiscal conservative--those in the house/senate who hava an (R) next to their name and take pork are not fiscal conservatives. I don't know how much clearer I can be time after time.

I don't like spending.

Nevada does.

Me-conservative.

Nevada- Money sucking liberal.

There ARE fiscal conservatives in Congress, these are usually the ones liberals and CNN try to bash.

Do you think Nationalized health care is a good idea?

How about no restrictions on the welfare system?

Do you agree with the 10 Cannots? If not, why are you posting with complaints about Repubs spending too much?

[Nevada_Ballin]

a true fiscal conservative is for smaller government and less spending. Bush was not a true fiscal conservative--those in the house/senate who hava an (R) next to their name and take pork are not fiscal conservatives. I don't know how much clearer I can be time after time.

I don't like spending.

Nevada does.

Me-conservative.

Nevada- Money sucking liberal.

There ARE fiscal conservatives in Congress, these are usually the ones liberals and CNN try to bash.

Do you think Nationalized health care is a good idea?

How about no restrictions on the welfare system?

Do you agree with the 10 Cannots? If not, why are you posting with complaints about Repubs spending too much?


Please tell me you are not calling me out here, you know i'll pummel you like i have done a million times before in discussions like this. I'll leave it there to save everyone from reading more stuff than they care to read on a nice spring day like today.

:)

.

[SUPDOG]

Please tell me you are not calling me out here, you know i'll pummel you like i have done a million times before in discussions like this. I'll leave it there to save everyone from reading more stuff than they care to read on a nice spring day like today.

:)

.

pummeling someone and you could never be in the same sentence.

But, yes, we all know your game by this point and time.

Long articles, written by your liberal idols, and then you add a word or two and "make them yours". Who couldn't do that?

Just admit the reality and we can all move on. You are angry with people like me who work hard day in and day out. You despise those who believe in things like the 10 cannots....You want to sit on your couch and collect the things that should be given to you, because those of success are entitled to support you and your lifestyle. You know those rich evil people. GET EM' OBAMA, WHILE I SIT ON MY COUCH AND WATCH....GET EM, MY SOCIALIST SUGAR DADDY!!!1:eek:

You son, could never "pummel me" in any debate. I know life. I go out and live life. I have seen first hand (and shared my experiences time and again-- you know those posts from me that you "convieniently ignore") the cancer of government domination in people's lives, and how people like you who want the government to steal for you are simply leaches on our society.

Yep, you got what you wanted, a snake who wants to own you. You seem to relish in big daddy Obama taking care of you, but me? No, I have integrity, a passion to provide for my family, and I WILL NEVER be silent when you and your liberal pals want to take away from the realities that make this country great.

Go ahead my Obama lovin' cut and paste liberal money sucker, post your articles, you wil lose as you always do.

[Nevada_Ballin]

pummeling someone and you could never be in the same sentence.

But, yes, we all know your game by this point and time.

Long articles, written by your liberal idols, and then you add a word or two and "make them yours". Who couldn't do that?

Just admit the reality and we can all move on. You are angry with people like me who work hard day in and day out. You despise those who believe in things like the 10 cannots....You want to sit on your couch and collect the things that should be given to you, because those of success are entitled to support you and your lifestyle. You know those rich evil people. GET EM' OBAMA, WHILE I SIT ON MY COUCH AND WATCH....GET EM, MY SOCIALIST SUGAR DADDY!!!1:eek:

You son, could never "pummel me" in any debate. I know life. I go out and live life. I have seen first hand (and shared my experiences time and again-- you know those posts from me that you "convieniently ignore") the cancer of government domination in people's lives, and how people like you who want the government to steal for you are simply leaches on our society.

Yep, you got what you wanted, a snake who wants to own you. You seem to relish in big daddy Obama taking care of you, but me? No, I have integrity, a passion to provide for my family, and I WILL NEVER be silent when you and your liberal pals want to take away from the realities that make this country great.

Go ahead my Obama lovin' cut and paste liberal money sucker, post your articles, you wil lose as you always do.

lol... here we go, brace yourself Sup.

1. I don't post long articles to prove a point. Everything i say and think comes from within, not from outside sources - you cannot say that for yourself.

2. I don't do the copy/paste thing even 1% as much as you do. A simple read-thru of this Town Hall proves that. YOU are Mr. Copy/Paste/Article/YoutTube poster.

3. I'm not angry at anyone, you are the one who is angry.

4. I seriously doubt if you work any harder than I do on a day-to-day basis. You think I sit on my couch all day and "collect things that people give to me"? Haha....How does that work? People come to my door and give me money to pay my rent, my power bills, my car payment, bring me food, water, toilet paper? Lest thee know, i'm a man of accomplishments in life. I've earned everything I have. No one gives me a thing. Therefore, as usual, you don't know what you are talking about (ya got pummeled son).

5. I could care less about someone's "10 Cannots" bullshiet. That's for people whi need more reason to bytch about things not being the way they want them to be.

6. We are all fully aware of your lack of compassion for your fellow man, even though you cloak yourself as a "christian". But I see through that cloak. You are not christian at all. You are simply confused and angry.

7. I think it's time for you to go back to building your Armagedden Fallout Shelter because you are definitely scared with nothing present to be scared about. I'll call Fox News and have them give you a direct cable connection though.

[allend]

I guess I'll just stop askillng for those examples and/or facts to support these opinions.

[conviction]

If you come out of college in four years and the gov't is still bailing out companies 9 times out of 10 you wont have to worry about being taxed heavy b/c there wont be any job for you to get! Secondly, what has the prez done that has you bracing for this "WAVE" of benefits going to people who don't earn them?

lol, someone has to be successful :p

The "wave" is highly anticipated because Obama is about as liberal as they come so I dunno why I would think otherwise. I'd be pleasantly surprised if the "wave" never occurs. Fingers crossed.

Obama's first step- take all the money away from the entrepreneurs.

[Nevada_Ballin]

lol, someone has to be successful :p

The "wave" is highly anticipated because Obama is about as liberal as they come so I dunno why I would think otherwise. I'd be pleasantly surprised if the "wave" never occurs. Fingers crossed.

Obama's first step- take all the money away from the entrepreneurs.

Like Allend has been asking - who's money has he taken???? No one will answer him because the answer is no one's.

Entrepreneurs are as ready to invest in business as they ever were. They aren't broke, they aren't afraid to invest and no one is "taking their money" - or your money either.

[Wild Bunch]

Like Allend has been asking - who's money has he taken???? No one will answer him because the answer is no one's.

Entrepreneurs are as ready to invest in business as they ever were. They aren't broke, they aren't afraid to invest and no one is "taking their money" - or your money either.

Taxes is taking money. I don't know if Obama has risen taxes yet though. So I'm not complaining.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Taxes is taking money. I don't know if Obama has risen taxes yet though. So I'm not complaining.

Obama has already cut taxes for most of us (about 95%). The other 5% (those who make over $250k a year) had their taxes raised by about 4%. I can't see where a +4% to people making that much money can be that much of a burden.

Keep in mind taxes are a neccesary evil, they pay for roads, schools and other services vital to the country's well-being. People will question the neccesity of some of those services but none of them are ones that Obama created, we've had thm for decades.

[conviction]

Like Allend has been asking - who's money has he taken???? No one will answer him because the answer is no one's.

Entrepreneurs are as ready to invest in business as they ever were. They aren't broke, they aren't afraid to invest and no one is "taking their money" - or your money either.

-Obama's plan is already approaching the 3 trillion dollar mark. Going to bailouts and to government projects for jobs. That money won't make its way to entrepreneurs obviously. The distribution of this wealth is targeted primarily to the lower class. The 3 trillion dollars spent have significantly dropped the value of the dollar and the wealth which entrepreneurs currently have has dropped.

-Entrepreneurs/business owners - Obama's tax plan will hike up taxes of people making over $250,000(or has he changed it to a lower number?)will start in 2011. 2/3 of small business make over $250,000 and those business and entrepreneurs will pay 50% of their income in taxes. I'd like to see businesses expand when your income is cut in half.

-Obama will ask the wealthiest 2% of families to give back a portion of the tax cuts they have received over the past eight years. This i could give 2 *****s about this....

It's not rocket science to figure out how Obama attempts to pay for his record setting budget. The burden is on the upper class to pump money to the government.

[Nevada_Ballin]

-Obama's plan is already approaching the 3 trillion dollar mark. Going to bailouts and to government projects for jobs. That money won't make its way to entrepreneurs obviously. The distribution of this wealth is targeted primarily to the lower class. The 3 trillion dollars spent have significantly dropped the value of the dollar and the wealth which entrepreneurs currently have has dropped.
.

That's a bit of a contradiction. The Obama Stim package requires that gov purchases from $3,000 to $100,000 be directed to small businesses. Added onto that is the requirement that 23% of all contracts go to small businesses.

To win contracts of $550,000 or more, large businesses must establish robust goals for small business subcontracting.

That's very attractive to any small biz entrepreneur.

.

[conviction]

That's a bit of a contradiction. The Obama Stim package requires that gov purchases from $3,000 to $100,000 be directed to small businesses. Added onto that is the requirement that 23% of all contracts go to small businesses.

To win contracts of $550,000 or more, large businesses must establish robust goals for small business subcontracting.

That's very attractive to any small biz entrepreneur.

.

Not bad, but you can't deny the tax hike is very high and redistribution of wealth is still concentrated to the lower class. The tax hike will take away expansion money. Where are the big investors in this plan? They're left hanged to dry. Any business owner will be sweating it with Obama's plan. What about the small business that aren't involved in the government projects? there's a larger market than just construction.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Not bad, but you can't deny the tax hike is very high and redistribution of wealth is still concentrated to the lower class. The tax hike will take away expansion money. Where are the big investors in this plan? They're left hanged to dry. Any business owner will be sweating it with Obama's plan. What about the small business that aren't involved in the government projects? there's a larger market than just construction.

The big investors are in good shape. It's times like these that make big investors their money. Especially when there are federal gov contracts to be had and state level infrastructure projects.

Keep in mind that not all gov contracts are construction. The Fed buys all kinds of stuff on a daily basis. You can find all of those things under the GSA listings. There's also a website that lists what they have forecasted for purchases at www.fbo.gov

.

[SUPDOG]

The big investors are in good shape. It's times like these that make big investors their money. Especially when there are federal gov contracts to be had and state level infrastructure projects.

Keep in mind that not all gov contracts are construction. The Fed buys all kinds of stuff on a daily basis. You can find all of those things under the GSA listings. There's also a website that lists what they have forecasted for purchases at www.fbo.gov

.


Where is all this money for infrastructure coming from?


Who determines what state level infra projects are a need vs. which ones are more on the "porkish side", or which ones are really pork?

In my area there was a big buzz about the "energy conservation" projects that are directed at public housing.

My liberal paper made it seem SO great that these millions upon millions are being poured into housing for those who don't pay a penny to live where they are.

So, millions of tax payer money gives some guys and gals some work for a bit and the liberals cry "yes, yes, yes", but next year when the projects of pork (and yes don't fool yourself this is a pork project full of pork avenues within) are "completed", then we have people who still live for nothing and small businesses suffer because of the tax increases on the bigger businesses who provide work for the smaller businesses BECAUSE SOMONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT!!!!

But nevada makes it sound like sugar and spice. Don't be fooled. Its Jimmy Carter la-la if you ask me.

[conviction]

Where is all this money for infrastructure coming from?


Who determines what state level infra projects are a need vs. which ones are more on the "porkish side", or which ones are really pork?

In my area there was a big buzz about the "energy conservation" projects that are directed at public housing.

My liberal paper made it seem SO great that these millions upon millions are being poured into housing for those who don't pay a penny to live where they are.

So, millions of tax payer money gives some guys and gals some work for a bit and the liberals cry "yes, yes, yes", but next year when the projects of pork (and yes don't fool yourself this is a pork project full of pork avenues within) are "completed", then we have people who still live for nothing and small businesses suffer because of the tax increases on the bigger businesses who provide work for the smaller businesses BECAUSE SOMONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT!!!!

But nevada makes it sound like sugar and spice. Don't be fooled. Its Jimmy Carter la-la if you ask me.

Word. It's gonna be the business owners. 50% is just a rediculous tax....

[Nevada_Ballin]

Where is all this money for infrastructure coming from?


Who determines what state level infra projects are a need vs. which ones are more on the "porkish side", or which ones are really pork?

In my area there was a big buzz about the "energy conservation" projects that are directed at public housing.

My liberal paper made it seem SO great that these millions upon millions are being poured into housing for those who don't pay a penny to live where they are.

So, millions of tax payer money gives some guys and gals some work for a bit and the liberals cry "yes, yes, yes", but next year when the projects of pork (and yes don't fool yourself this is a pork project full of pork avenues within) are "completed", then we have people who still live for nothing and small businesses suffer because of the tax increases on the bigger businesses who provide work for the smaller businesses BECAUSE SOMONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT!!!!

But nevada makes it sound like sugar and spice. Don't be fooled. Its Jimmy Carter la-la if you ask me.

As usual and as always, our taxpayer money pays for things. That's the purpose of having taxes in the first place. Where ya been for the last 230 years?

[Wild Bunch]

As usual and as always, our taxpayer money pays for things. That's the purpose of having taxes in the first place. Where ya been for the last 230 years?

And that's exactly what many people are saying, taxing is taking money. Just because it's been going on before doesn't mean people like it.

[R-ILLA]

facism does not equal socialism

[resnor]

Nevada, don't sit there and act like the taxes have been the same for the last 230 years...and don't act like government has been spending money the same for the last 230 years. For example, New Hampshire had a governor about 8 years ago, who went by the name of Jeanne Shaheen (she just got elected senator...:mad::mad:). Anyway, in her TWO TERMS as governor, she DOUBLED the state spending. In other words, in four years, she managed to up state spending to more than the all the other NH governors COMBINED. What a surprise, she was a Democrat. The governor of NH who was the most liked, by both Dems and Pubs alike, was one Meldrim Thomson. He was known as "Ax the Tax" Thomson. Want to guess what HIS political affiliation was? Under him, NH saw huge economic growth. Shaheen managed to screw the entire state over by driving medical insurance companies out of the state, and raising all our premiums. Point is, government spends more NOW than they ever used to...and much of that money is going to people who don't pay taxes. That is why people say that Obama is taking from those who have, and giving to those who don't. He even said that that was what he believed in.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Nevada, don't sit there and act like the taxes have been the same for the last 230 years...and don't act like government has been spending money the same for the last 230 years. For example, New Hampshire had a governor about 8 years ago, who went by the name of Jeanne Shaheen (she just got elected senator...:mad::mad:). Anyway, in her TWO TERMS as governor, she DOUBLED the state spending. In other words, in four years, she managed to up state spending to more than the all the other NH governors COMBINED. What a surprise, she was a Democrat. The governor of NH who was the most liked, by both Dems and Pubs alike, was one Meldrim Thomson. He was known as "Ax the Tax" Thomson. Want to guess what HIS political affiliation was? Under him, NH saw huge economic growth. Shaheen managed to screw the entire state over by driving medical insurance companies out of the state, and raising all our premiums. Point is, government spends more NOW than they ever used to...and much of that money is going to people who don't pay taxes. That is why people say that Obama is taking from those who have, and giving to those who don't. He even said that that was what he believed in.

I only meant to point out the intent of taxes, not certain people's application of it.

.

[Nevada_Ballin]

And that's exactly what many people are saying, taxing is taking money. Just because it's been going on before doesn't mean people like it.

Damn right it's taking money.... but in theory it's money being taken which in turn becomes used for the general welfare of the country, i.e., military, science, medical, social, education, etc.

Let's not confuse the theory with recetn applications over the years. Just keep in mind that every once in a while, a large capitalist society such as ours will trip over it's own sword and cut itself. When that happens, a band-aid is usually needed. But this time, the cut is deeper and stitches are need. That costs more than band-aids.

.

[Wild Bunch]

Damn right it's taking money.... but in theory it's money being taken which in turn becomes used for the general welfare of the country, i.e., military, science, medical, social, education, etc.

Let's not confuse the theory with recetn applications over the years. Just keep in mind that every once in a while, a large capitalist society such as ours will trip over it's own sword and cut itself. When that happens, a band-aid is usually needed. But this time, the cut is deeper and stitches are need. That costs more than band-aids.

.

This is true. But that's something many don't believe in (including me), using money for the general good when someone worked to gain it for themselves (and deserved it).

As for the tripping over our own sword thing, I disagree somewhat. I don't have a perfect timeline for all capitalist countries. But it seems to me that we usually wind up doing something the system didn't originally call for (such as when we loosened regulations and signed the 'Modernization Act') and then things fall apart.

I recently took a long look at government and what it's role should be, starting from why humans first made government and then building up into larger potential problems that may (will) be encountered. What I wound up with is extremely different than most governments of today. I don't want anyone to think that I think I'm some genius or anything though, I'm probably very wrong somewhere along the line.

[Nevada_Ballin]

This is true. But that's something many don't believe in (including me), using money for the general good when someone worked to gain it for themselves (and deserved it).

As for the tripping over our own sword thing, I disagree somewhat. I don't have a perfect timeline for all capitalist countries. But it seems to me that we usually wind up doing something the system didn't originally call for (such as when we loosened regulations and signed the 'Modernization Act') and then things fall apart.

I recently took a long look at government and what it's role should be, starting from why humans first made government and then building up into larger potential problems that may (will) be encountered. What I wound up with is extremely different than most governments of today. I don't want anyone to think that I think I'm some genius or anything though, I'm probably very wrong somewhere along the line.

If you don't believe in taxes, which is a cornerstone of capitalism, then how would a society such as ours continue to exist? I mean, are YOU willing to spend your own time and make it your own responsibility to go out and patch a road? Better yet, do you think it's feasible for you to train yourself in military tactics, then try to build a fighter jet or warship on your own to help secure the nationand freedoms you enjoy as an American? Let alone trying to become coordinated with others for national security's sake. What about medical research? Would you be willing to embark on your own self-research to try to cure things that only happen to you? Then on top of all that, educating your children?

You may want to re-think :)

.

[Wild Bunch]

If you don't believe in taxes, which is a cornerstone of capitalism, then how would a society such as ours continue to exist? I mean, are YOU willing to spend your own time and make it your own responsibility to go out and patch a road? Better yet, do you think it's feasible for you to train yourself in military tactics, then try to build a fighter jet or warship on your own to help secure the nationand freedoms you enjoy as an American? Let alone trying to become coordinated with others for national security's sake. What about medical research? Would you be willing to embark on your own self-research to try to cure things that only happen to you? Then on top of all that, educating your children?

You may want to re-think :)

.

Well this is where it begins getting very different. Government should make it's money by being various business's by itself, but allowing free markets for the citizens business. No taxes, just good very conservative business in various forms so that you aren't completely screwed by one bad part of it.

And when I say "conservative" in the above paragraph, I don't mean politically conservative, just spend very conservatively and save alot, for unexpected things such as natural disasters.

Is this first difference flawed (on the part of my "hypothetical government)? Yes I'm sure it is, I just don't currently see it the flaw.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Well this is where it begins getting very different. Government should make it's money by being various business's by itself, but allowing free markets for the citizens business. No taxes, just good very conservative business in various forms so that you aren't completely screwed by one bad part of it.

And when I say "conservative" in the above paragraph, I don't mean politically conservative, just spend very conservatively and save alot, for unexpected things such as natural disasters.

Is this first difference flawed (on the part of my "hypothetical government)? Yes I'm sure it is, I just don't currently see it the flaw.

So in essence, you are saying that goverment should run it's own businesses - which would compete against the private sector with said businesses - to generate the money needed for running/securing the country. You don't see the flaws in that? (yes, flaws with an "s" because there are many)


.

[Wild Bunch]

So in essence, you are saying that goverment should run it's own businesses - which would compete against the private sector with said businesses - to generate the money needed for running/securing the country. You don't see the flaws in that? (yes, flaws with an "s" because there are many)


.

Wow don't get all yelling through words, I'm not thick headed like SUPDOG.

Your right it wouldn't be a good idea to have the hypothetical government be the Microsofts of the world. Think farms, electirc power generation, things that are based on a necessary product.

[SUPDOG]

Wow don't get all yelling through words, I'm not LEVEL headed like SUPDOG.

Your right it wouldn't be a good idea to have the hypothetical government be the Microsofts of the world. Think farms, electirc power generation, things that are based on a necessary product.

.................better.

[conviction]

The biggest question in government and forever will be is this. To what extent should the government govern. It's a fundamental difference that separates conservatives and liberals. I believe in a very small government but right now the government is massive and it plays too big a role. The right thing to do in this economic situation would have been to say let the businesses fail but no one will vote for the guy that says "I'm sorry you lost your job but we need to ride this out". They wanna vote for the candidate that says "hey I know a way to keep your jobs".

[Nevada_Ballin]

Wow don't get all yelling through words, I'm not thick headed like SUPDOG.

Your right it wouldn't be a good idea to have the hypothetical government be the Microsofts of the world. Think farms, electirc power generation, things that are based on a necessary product.

That wasn't yelling... that was highlighting a point.. yelling is 42 pt fonts like CP and KKing :D

You want the government to run farms? What about the people who make a living off farming as a business.... they are many of the country's small biz people.

[resnor]

I don't believe that the government needs to be in the business of funding people who don't work. So much of our tax revenue goes to funding social programs...programs that I don't think the government needs to be financing. Are there people that need help? Sure. But I've seen first hand the able bodied people just sucking on the tit of big government.

Taxes wouldn't be a problem, if government was RESPONSIBLE with the tax money. However, they aren't. That is why Social Security is going bankrupt. Instead of leaving the money in the Social Security account, politicians started taking money of that fund to finance other projects. The intent of taxes can be good...i.e., providing money for national defense, but it can also be bad, with welfare systems running wild.

[Nevada_Ballin]

I don't believe that the government needs to be in the business of funding people who don't work. So much of our tax revenue goes to funding social programs...programs that I don't think the government needs to be financing. Are there people that need help? Sure. But I've seen first hand the able bodied people just sucking on the tit of big government.

Taxes wouldn't be a problem, if government was RESPONSIBLE with the tax money. However, they aren't. That is why Social Security is going bankrupt. Instead of leaving the money in the Social Security account, politicians started taking money of that fund to finance other projects. The intent of taxes can be good...i.e., providing money for national defense, but it can also be bad, with welfare systems running wild.

Think about your country if there was not some sort of welfare program. I mean really give it some thought... i get it that no one should get a free ride, i don't think they should either. But not helping at all could devalue so many things so much.

There is an answer for it, we just haven't fund the right one. But it's somewhere in the middle.



.

[resnor]

Nevada, NOWHERE in my post did I advocate for ZERO welfare programs. I even said that there are people who legitimately need a helping hand. Problem is, there are far too many who don't legitimately need a helping hand who are getting free money...money that comes from taxpayers, and could be better used elsewhere. The government's job is to keep us safe, and allow us to pursue happiness. The government is not there to feed us, and bathe us, and put us to bed.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Nevada, NOWHERE in my post did I advocate for ZERO welfare programs. I even said that there are people who legitimately need a helping hand. Problem is, there are far too many who don't legitimately need a helping hand who are getting free money...money that comes from taxpayers, and could be better used elsewhere. The government's job is to keep us safe, and allow us to pursue happiness. The government is not there to feed us, and bathe us, and put us to bed.

I stand corrected on your point and i agree with what you're saying about too many illegitimates gaming the system. The task at hand is how to filter them, which is what i meant by finding the right way to get it done. We haven't found that yet. Of course there will always be people who try to game the system. That happens in every area of life.


.

[resnor]

Well, the problem is, Nevada, how do you determine if someone is legitimately in need of welfare? Doctor's recommendation? LOL. Seriously, though. I think that we need some sort of incentive for people to get OFF of welfare. As it stands, our welfare system creates people who are dependant on it to survive. They can't get a real job, because as soon as they have income, they stop qualifying for as much welfare. So, if they can't make enough to support themselves with out welfare, they just stay on welfare. That is a problem.

[Wild Bunch]

That wasn't yelling... that was highlighting a point.. yelling is 42 pt fonts like CP and KKing :D

You want the government to run farms? What about the people who make a living off farming as a business.... they are many of the country's small biz people.

This is true. :D

As for the current farmers, they can compete, but that is most likely a unwise choice. The ones that can't make money because of competition would probably wind up getting degrees.

Keep in mind I have no idea about a "transition plan" our government could take to this, this "hypothetical" government is just something I thought the government should wind up as coming from it's most root purposes.

[resnor]

The other thing about farming...you do realize that the government gives out quite a bit of money through subsidies to keep farms running...

[theanalogkid]

Farm subsidies are nothing but corporate welfare these days, since the majority of farming is done by corporations.

[SUPDOG]

The realiy lies in the mindset. Don't let leftists fool you with the whole "well, yes I agree we need to stop welfare abuse". Nope. They LOVE IT. They LOVE being angry and using the whole "well, you aren't compassionate, and don't care for the poor argument".

If anyone on this planet thinks for a minute that Obama doesn't want to see a tremendous increase in welfare/unemployment benefits they are without a clue and mezmorized by class warfare rhetoric. Obama wants to rule over people, that is just a reality.

"Vote for me and I'll give you "free stuff". Yay Obama says GT!!!

I am convinced that some are in it for the free online video games! ;)

How many people do you think would be on welfare if they were required to pay back the benefits wihtin 10 months? How many would abuse the system if the penalties were equal to those who commit bank robbery?

No, no, no, would argue those like Nevada. We can't be THAT extreme in putting these "poor folk" who sit around the house and drink government funded beer all day in prison. But when a business owner uses his brains and makes 500,000/year, they are the EVIL rich man! Down with the rich!

I have told you story aftrer story of the abuses. Doesn't matter. In liberal land those who abuse the system are few, when in reality the ones who "truly need it" are the few, with the abusers in the majority. It is what happens when government gets too much power. Waste, waste, waste. If I were to save a few grand in taxes each year, I could give my number 1 guy a nice raise. But naw, we got to John the leach some whiskey for the evening and all the fatty food he can eat on his food stamp card.

[allend]

The realiy lies in the mindset. Don't let leftists fool you with the whole "well, yes I agree we need to stop welfare abuse". Nope. They LOVE IT. They LOVE being angry and using the whole "well, you aren't compassionate, and don't care for the poor argument".

If anyone on this planet thinks for a minute that Obama doesn't want to see a tremendous increase in welfare/unemployment benefits they are without a clue and mezmorized by class warfare rhetoric. Obama wants to rule over people, that is just a reality.

"Vote for me and I'll give you "free stuff". Yay Obama says GT!!!

I am convinced that some are in it for the free online video games! ;)

How many people do you think would be on welfare if they were required to pay back the benefits wihtin 10 months? How many would abuse the system if the penalties were equal to those who commit bank robbery?

No, no, no, would argue those like Nevada. We can't be THAT extreme in putting these "poor folk" who sit around the house and drink government funded beer all day. But when a business owner uses his brains and makes 500,000/year, they are the EVIL rich man! Down with the rich!

I have told you story aftrer story of the abuses. Doesn't matter. In liberal land those who abuse the system are few, when in reality the ones who "truly need it" are the few, with the abusers in the majority. It is what happens when government gets too much power. Waste, waste, waste. If I were to save a few grand in taxes each year, I could give my number 1 guy a nice raise. But naw, we got to John the leach some whiskey for the evening and all the fatty food he can eat on his food stamp card.

So why are you saying Obama's name when ur talking about the problems w/the system? It seems like you would fault bush for not fixing the problem in the last 8 years. But that wouldnt be supporting ur party would it?

So in less than 100 days Obama is supposed to fix all the problems with the welfare system. There's some good logic!

[Nevada_Ballin]

This is true. :D

As for the current farmers, they can compete, but that is most likely a unwise choice. The ones that can't make money because of competition would probably wind up getting degrees.

Keep in mind I have no idea about a "transition plan" our government could take to this, this "hypothetical" government is just something I thought the government should wind up as coming from it's most root purposes.

There's a bigger picture to look at. Staying with farming as the example at hand. where do you draw the line of separating the goverment business and the businesses the private sector are "allowed" to have (god that sounds so ridiculous just saying it because it's advocating even more government control)

Once the food is grown it needs to be transported for processing. Is this the line?
Processing Plants?
Distribution Centers?
Wholesale purchasing?
Shipping to markets?
The markets themselves?

Forgive me for saying it but your idea is extremely absurd :)

[resnor]

Allend, pointing out that Bush wasn't a fiscal conservative is like pointing out that th sky is blue. Not to mention, if you're pointing out that Bush was fiscally irresponsible in his 8 years, well, Obama has created more debt in 100 days than Bush did in 8 years. Your argument fails.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

I am a democrat at heart so I believe that certain things (like healthcare) should be a universal right to the citizens whose taxes create the country. I don't care how you get there but all citizens of a country should have access to affordable heathcare.

However, the issue I have is that it feels like the answer to all problems lately is to tax those who have been successful to fund anything and everything. If you work hard and have been blessed you get demonized. You are called greedy and people act like you have done something wrong and need to be punished. But on the other hand if you are a deadbeat who has fathered 3 children buy 3 different women you are somehow and the government should take care of you. If you are a single mom who got pregnant by a guy you didn't even know well enough that he would stay around for the birth you deserve to be coddled. (Octo-mom is getting donations and a reality TV show for doing one of most disgusting things a person can do...knowingly bring children into the world that they can't care for). Since the recession started the tone has been people who have worked hard and are doing well have somehow cheated and stolen from the rest of the country.

Yet during this time of thrift the government won't even keep basic its everyday spending budget flat y/y yet they tell us they need more money from us. We are told that we have to sacrifice for the good of the country but and yet the people we elect continue to live high on the hog. What sucks is now it is my party doing it after bashing Bush for doing it. It is very disheartening to know that no matter who is in power I am going to get screwed.

I won't even get into the currency issue...or I might lose it...

-TS

[allend]

Allend, pointing out that Bush wasn't a fiscal conservative is like pointing out that th sky is blue. Not to mention, if you're pointing out that Bush was fiscally irresponsible in his 8 years, well, Obama has created more debt in 100 days than Bush did in 8 years. Your argument fails.


It's not about the debt w/me when it comes to this debate. I know Obama is racking up a huge bill and I never said that I was in support of that. My point is I keep seeing where people are talking about "welfare" and "taking from us and giving to them" and I don't think theres any proof that this is happening. (At least at any greater rate that it has in the past). I'm probably the biggest supporter of welfare reform in this nation. I worked as a Juvinile Probation Officer for almost four years and trust me I'm all too familiar with people trying to ride the wheels off the system. You don't know how many times I've been on home visits where some fat lazy azz mother of 6 is laying around w/her boyfriend and they cant even tell you where their kid is. (and amazingly they all seem to have a big screen in a 10x8 livingroom). I have a friend right now who I've put some distance between us b/c him and his girlfriend are draining the system. She's on section 8 (a housing program where all of her rent is paid courtesy of the taxpayers), she has 3 kids who are fully covered by medicaid (also paid for by the taxpayers), she receives tanif (sp?) (a gov't ((taxpayer)) funded program which provides the person w/money to pay expenses such as utilities etc), and she receives food stamps. And, here's the kicker. The third child had/has a heart condition and they receive a social security check for him for around $700 per month. (That's the real reason that our friendship got strained b/c he was/is letting his girlfriend get her hair done and go to the club w/that money instead of putting it up for the child). And don't let me forget that she hasn't worked since December of 07. Keep in mind that my base salary is around $38,000 per year and I make the bulk of my money by working overtime. So what does that mean? That means that everytime I stop by his house to chill w/him I'm looking at a house that I'm paying for, food that I'm paying for, and so on and so forth. I made almost $65,000 last year. If you do that math on that you'll see that I worked damn near every day while they just got to kick back and chill off my dime. So trust me, I cant stand people who live care free and let us pay for it. But at the same time, this has been going on b/4 the new administration took office and it will probably continue. I just don't understand why all of a sudden everyone is so up in arms about it now. People have been selling kids for $500 during income tax time since I've been old enough to file taxes. People have been selling food stamps 2 for 1 since I can remember. And now, all of a sudden, when the new president hasn't even been in office for 6 months yet everybody is repeating the same types of thoughts. Again, for the most part Im in agreement about questioning whether the prez is borrowing/spending too much money. But don't all of a sudden start complaining about the welfare system when a new prez comes into office.

[allend]

It's not about the debt w/me when it comes to this debate. I know Obama is racking up a huge bill and I never said that I was in support of that. My point is I keep seeing where people are talking about "welfare" and "taking from us and giving to them" and I don't think theres any proof that this is happening. (At least at any greater rate that it has in the past). I'm probably the biggest supporter of welfare reform in this nation. I worked as a Juvinile Probation Officer for almost four years and trust me I'm all too familiar with people trying to ride the wheels off the system. You don't know how many times I've been on home visits where some fat lazy azz mother of 6 is laying around w/her boyfriend and they cant even tell you where their kid is. (and amazingly they all seem to have a big screen in a 10x8 livingroom). I have a friend right now who I've put some distance between us b/c him and his girlfriend are draining the system. She's on section 8 (a housing program where all of her rent is paid courtesy of the taxpayers), she has 3 kids who are fully covered by medicaid (also paid for by the taxpayers), she receives tanif (sp?) (a gov't ((taxpayer)) funded program which provides the person w/money to pay expenses such as utilities etc), and she receives food stamps. And, here's the kicker. The third child had/has a heart condition and they receive a social security check for him for around $700 per month. (That's the real reason that our friendship got strained b/c he was/is letting his girlfriend get her hair done and go to the club w/that money instead of putting it up for the child). And don't let me forget that she hasn't worked since December of 07. Keep in mind that my base salary is around $38,000 per year and I make the bulk of my money by working overtime. So what does that mean? That means that everytime I stop by his house to chill w/him I'm looking at a house that I'm paying for, food that I'm paying for, and so on and so forth. I made almost $65,000 last year. If you do that math on that you'll see that I worked damn near every day while they just got to kick back and chill off my dime. So trust me, I cant stand people who live care free and let us pay for it. But at the same time, this has been going on b/4 the new administration took office and it will probably continue. I just don't understand why all of a sudden everyone is so up in arms about it now. People have been selling kids for $500 during income tax time since I've been old enough to file taxes. People have been selling food stamps 2 for 1 since I can remember. And now, all of a sudden, when the new president hasn't even been in office for 6 months yet everybody is repeating the same types of thoughts. Again, for the most part Im in agreement about questioning whether the prez is borrowing/spending too much money. But don't all of a sudden start complaining about the welfare system when a new prez comes into office.

I guess I should have broke it up a little bit huh?

[allend]

I am a democrat at heart so I believe that certain things (like healthcare) should be a universal right to the citizens whose taxes create the country. I don't care how you get there but all citizens of a country should have access to affordable heathcare.

However, the issue I have is that it feels like the answer to all problems lately is to tax those who have been successful to fund anything and everything. If you work hard and have been blessed you get demonized. You are called greedy and people act like you have done something wrong and need to be punished. But on the other hand if you are a deadbeat who has fathered 3 children buy 3 different women you are somehow and the government should take care of you. If you are a single mom who got pregnant by a guy you didn't even know well enough that he would stay around for the birth you deserve to be coddled. (Octo-mom is getting donations and a reality TV show for doing one of most disgusting things a person can do...knowingly bring children into the world that they can't care for). Since the recession started the tone has been people who have worked hard and are doing well have somehow cheated and stolen from the rest of the country.

Yet during this time of thrift the government won't even keep basic its everyday spending budget flat y/y yet they tell us they need more money from us. We are told that we have to sacrifice for the good of the country but and yet the people we elect continue to live high on the hog. What sucks is now it is my party doing it after bashing Bush for doing it. It is very disheartening to know that no matter who is in power I am going to get screwed.

I won't even get into the currency issue...or I might lose it...

-TS

Have taxes actually gone up on any demographic since Obama took office? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't know. I know I've gotten a little break on fed taxes for the last two checks but I'm not a business owner so I don't know if they are getting the same break or the opposite. I'm asking this question b/c it seems that many people are "bracing for the wave" (as someone stated earlier in this thread) and that wave seems to be only real in the mind of the Joe the Plumber types. My second question is if the taxes have gone up since Obama took office, have they been increased more than what they were pre-Bush or has Obama just changed them back to what they were during the Clinton administration.

[SUPDOG]

HEre is a great video of what Obama has done to ensure that he controls more people. In the stimulus package, signed into law by Osatan, there was a repealling of the Clinton welfare reformation bill (well, actually it was a GOP driven bill in the house and senate). This video breaks down the effect of welfare on poor black children, etc. and how for many years during the "war on poverty", welfare actually increased poverty levels, etc. Yep, Bam,bam does his best racism work in the video.

http://vodpod.com/watch/1367036-clinton-welfare-reforms-repealed-in-stimulus



Here is some more articles.

http://vodpod.com/watch/1367036-clinton-welfare-reforms-repealed-in-stimulus

The fundamental difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush was a conservative who got sucked into big spending by the end of his term. The TARP money was a result of Bush falling for fear tactics about the economy.

Obama is a socialist who wants to take from the rich and give to those who want to be lazy. Why? Because he wants power over them. Yes, this is nothing more than an evil left power trip. And make no mistake about it, people like Nevada and GT, and Obama himself WILL TELL YOU that they want people to "work" for a living, but in the end they would much rather make the poor poorer, so the governement can take care of all of us.

Each liberal has their own reasons why: For Nevada and GT it is likely class hatred and the hope of free government video game, for Obama and the dems it is a power trip. For the clueless bleeding heart liberal (NB is here also), it is "the rich hate the poor", etc.

IT is a fundamental difference in mindset. The lazy who want to do enough to "just get by", will have the mentality that the government should make things easy for "its people", while in contrast, people like me who work their fingers to the bone believe that you need to take away the government pacifier and get people motivated to become successful. The ways of Nevada Ballin' are the "easy way", the ways of Supdog, require integrity and hard work.

Just for the record, I used to be a leach on the system, and I have seen how it totally steals one's life. It is a depressant on society. End of story.

Obama wants a depressed society that he can control because he is an evil marxist snake.

[Paydirt404]

Have taxes actually gone up on any demographic since Obama took office? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't know. I know I've gotten a little break on fed taxes for the last two checks but I'm not a business owner so I don't know if they are getting the same break or the opposite. I'm asking this question b/c it seems that many people are "bracing for the wave" (as someone stated earlier in this thread) and that wave seems to be only real in the mind of the Joe the Plumber types. My second question is if the taxes have gone up since Obama took office, have they been increased more than what they were pre-Bush or has Obama just changed them back to what they were during the Clinton administration.

My wife makes a 110K and i make 70K, we felt no change in taxes this year, matter of fact we received a refund after filing. I dont know where people are getting this panicky syndrome that Obama is going to send the rich to the poor house. Last time i checked, no one on this forum is raking in millions, so a lot of points I see on here i ask myself "how does that apply to you?" For some reason, I feel like a lot of points made dont. How much do people actually make on this board?

I would like to know how many small business owners we have on this board? If Obama is costing you money, please provide specific answers/examples and not cut and paste articles. If anyone here can provide some answers to how we can get ourselves out of this financial mess, please post them. I've been looking a solutions thread on this forum, but I havent found one yet, and I more than likely wont, based on the history.

[Nevada_Ballin]

I am a democrat at heart so I believe that certain things (like healthcare) should be a universal right to the citizens whose taxes create the country. I don't care how you get there but all citizens of a country should have access to affordable heathcare.

However, the issue I have is that it feels like the answer to all problems lately is to tax those who have been successful to fund anything and everything. If you work hard and have been blessed you get demonized. You are called greedy and people act like you have done something wrong and need to be punished. But on the other hand if you are a deadbeat who has fathered 3 children buy 3 different women you are somehow and the government should take care of you. If you are a single mom who got pregnant by a guy you didn't even know well enough that he would stay around for the birth you deserve to be coddled. (Octo-mom is getting donations and a reality TV show for doing one of most disgusting things a person can do...knowingly bring children into the world that they can't care for). Since the recession started the tone has been people who have worked hard and are doing well have somehow cheated and stolen from the rest of the country.

Yet during this time of thrift the government won't even keep basic its everyday spending budget flat y/y yet they tell us they need more money from us. We are told that we have to sacrifice for the good of the country but and yet the people we elect continue to live high on the hog. What sucks is now it is my party doing it after bashing Bush for doing it. It is very disheartening to know that no matter who is in power I am going to get screwed.

I won't even get into the currency issue...or I might lose it...

-TS

The perception that rich people are being taxed out of their minds is just that, a perception. All that happened with them is their tax rates reverted back to what they were when Clinton was President - they certainly were not struggling then and they won't be struggling now.

Octomom is one person out of how many millions? The only reason she got a reality show/donations is because of the media attention, not the government.

Deadbeat parents (because these days they are both moms and dads) are in courts across the land every day being held accountable. Whether they adhere or not is another topic for another time. But like octomom, they are a small percent.

We all know the system isn't perfect, it never has been. But in order to fix it, some tinkering needs to be done. Hopefully someday we have something that makes all of the system abuse as minimal as it can be.


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[Nevada_Ballin]

My wife makes a 110K and i make 70K, we felt no change in taxes this year, matter of fact we received a refund after filing. I dont know where people are getting this panicky syndrome that Obama is going to send the rich to the poor house. Last time i checked, no one on this forum is raking in millions, so a lot of points I see on here i ask myself "how does that apply to you?" For some reason, I feel like a lot of points made dont. How much do people actually make on this board?

I would like to know how many small business owners we have on this board? If Obama is costing you money, please provide specific answers/examples and not cut and paste articles. If anyone here can provide some answers to how we can get ourselves out of this financial mess, please post them. I've been looking a solutions thread on this forum, but I havent found one yet, and I more than likely wont, based on the history.

I own my small business and nothing has changed for me so far. In fact I started my business at the very beginning of this recession about a year ago. So far, this year is ahead of last year and I'm anticipating an awesome end-of-year result once we break out our new products at E3.

Forecast = partly cloudy with clouds clearing and sunny blue skies by end of the year.

If we raise the bar to the highest tax bracket this year then sobeit, that's not a bad thing imo, it means we're doing well.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

Have taxes actually gone up on any demographic since Obama took office? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't know. I know I've gotten a little break on fed taxes for the last two checks but I'm not a business owner so I don't know if they are getting the same break or the opposite. I'm asking this question b/c it seems that many people are "bracing for the wave" (as someone stated earlier in this thread) and that wave seems to be only real in the mind of the Joe the Plumber types. My second question is if the taxes have gone up since Obama took office, have they been increased more than what they were pre-Bush or has Obama just changed them back to what they were during the Clinton administration.

"Bracing for the wave" is correct but it is not a fantasy. You voice your opinion prior to taxes going up not after because you don't want them to go up and once they do go up it is hard to get them to go back down. It isn't about what he has done (he hasn't been in there long enough to do anything) it is what he has publically stated he will do.

Here is what we know:

We do know from the campaign that the tax the 5% promise is what he is pushing for in his budget.
Any smoker probably noticed the price of their cigs went up about 20% in the last couple of weeks...(SCHIP was funded through raising FET tobacco taxes so the 20% of the population that smokes probably noticed that)...the price will probably go up another 10% by the end of the year BTW as states raise their tobacco taxes.
We do know that they are kicking around federal taxes on alcohol.
We do know they are kicking around a cap-n-trade tax.
We do know they are kicking around reducing the amount you can deduct for mortgage interest and charitable contributions.
We know that no other country has been able to fund universal healthcare at the costs the administration is suggesting and that it will most likely require higher taxes to make it happen
We do know they are kicking around raising the capital gains tax
And we know that they are kicking around removing the foreign tax benefit


The problem with taking federal taxes back up is that most state taxes and fees and are up dramatically since Clinton left office because the Bush administration kinda screwed the states (like Obama is going to do) so that they could say they lowered taxes at the federal level (and therefore forcing states to raise at the local level). So what you get is (for instance) in CA a state income tax that is now projected to be close to 10% all-in up almost 50% from 2000 which will be on-top of a federal tax increase. It feels punitive in some situations.

My big issue (the same thing I had with Bush) is the massive amounts of government spending creates a hidden tax. Money isn't free so when we just print and print and borrow and print and borrow and print and print and borrow it causes the cost of living in America to go up because there is no growth to offset the inflation and interst costs.

The point (for me) is that this isn't an Obama issue but if he complained about the Bush fiscal policy of the last 8 years why come in and basically do the exact same thing but under the guise of social programs instead of war funding...

-TS

Oh and BTW the taxes you paid last week are for 2008 not 2009 anything Obama does will hit you next year not this year so saying that you taxes didn't go up this year kinda makes no sense...

[TheSphinx 2.0]

The perception that rich people are being taxed out of their minds is just that, a perception. All that happened with them is their tax rates reverted back to what they were when Clinton was President - they certainly were not struggling then and they won't be struggling now.

When people say this I know they are just parrotting something they heard on TV because it is a one-liner that is easy to remember but it is just wrong. The federal tax burden is not the only tax burden people have...and across the board all other taxes and fees are up since Clinton left office so to kick the federal tax burden back to "Clinton levels" ensure that the overall tax burden for people will go up.

The kicker is that at least when Clinton raised taxes he used that money to balance the budget (very smart and I was all for it) but what we are doing now is basically using that tax revenue as margin collateral in which they will leverage with debt to increase spending...which will then increase the overall "tax" (interest and inflation) burden on the population.

You should look at the stuff we are paying for...heathcare for "kids" up to the age of 30 in some cases (WTH)...

-TS

[Nevada_Ballin]

When people say this I know they are just parrotting something they heard on TV because it is a one-liner that is easy to remember but it is just wrong. The federal tax burden is not the only tax burden people have...and across the board all other taxes and fees are up since Clinton left office so to kick the federal tax burden back to "Clinton levels" ensure that the overall tax burden for people will go up.

The kicker is that at least when Clinton raised taxes he used that money to balance the budget (very smart and I was all for it) but what we are doing now is basically using that tax revenue as margin collateral in which they will leverage with debt to increase spending...which will then increase the overall "tax" (interest and inflation) burden on the population.

You should look at the stuff we are paying for...heathcare for "kids" up to the age of 30 in some cases (WTH)...


-TS


ummm, not "something i heard on TV"... i'm 49 y.o., i was actually a full-fledged, tax paying adult during the Clinton years and have been since Carter was POTUS. I don't need a TV to tell me how things were or how they've gone :)

[TheSphinx 2.0]

ummm, not "something i heard on TV"... i'm 49 y.o., i was actually a full-fledged, tax paying adult during the Clinton years and have been since Carter was POTUS. I don't need a TV to tell me how things were or how they've gone :)

I hear you man...and my comment wasn't meant as a dig at you but to point out that that is a popular phrase that is often thrown around but I believe it is misleading because it implies everything else is static (which anybody who has paid a toll for a tunnel or bridge or highway recently knows is not the case).

-TS

[Nevada_Ballin]

I hear you man...and my comment wasn't meant as a dig at you but to point out that that is a popular phrase that is often thrown around but I believe it is misleading because it implies everything else is static (which anybody who has paid a toll for a tunnel or bridge or highway recently knows is not the case).

-TS

yea i get that and a lot of people will simply rely on whatever info the media gives them and just run with it... hi supdogyoutuber!

You have a different perspective when you're older than dirt and have seen/lived the effects of the past :)

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