NYT: "Interrogation Tactics Yielded "High Value Information"

[SUPDOG]

Straight out of the mouth of Obama’s national intelligence director Admiral Dennis Blair




“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=3&hp


Well, we no longer have to discuss the effectiveness of waterboarding. It appears the New York Times couldn't even keep it under wraps. Yep, it saved lives. End of story.

I wonder if Obama will release the rest of the interrogation memos that he has under wraps? You know the memos that are the source from which Blair made his comments? HE was very excited to release the methods themselves, why not the rest of the story? Any thoughts? NEvada? GT? San An? :confused:

Naw, it is much easier to prosecute those who kept us safe if we keep those memos tucked away. Hmmm, looks like Obama found another sticky situation in which he was wrong and Bush was right. Just like Bush told you.

[theanalogkid]

Reading through the article I saw the same guys also said:

"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

[Nevada_Ballin]

Here's the thing about all of this..... we've signed on to several international agreements over the years that have been centered around the humane treatment of prisoners, captives, etc, including the Geneva Convention. To go against those agreements behind closed doors makes us appear to be two-faced. Well, not even "appear", it does make us two-faced. The USA becomes the country that speaks with a forked tongue.

If we believe certain "Jack Bauer" techniques are best suited for our national security these days, then we need to announce that we are no longer adhering to the international agreements we had previously signed and that we will use some unpopular methods of interrogation to obtain information we are looking for.

Of course, one would ask what information did you get from so & so the 100th time you waterboarded him that you didn't have after the 99th time.... but that's another topic for another time.

It is disgraceful and it is harmful to our global image for us to stand on our pedastal, single out some individual countries and chastise them on their human rights treatment of anyone - citizens or otherwise - while we ourselves are violating some human rights issues that we voluntarily signed onto ourselves. It's the hypocrisy of the situation on an international stage that has everyone's concern here. We need to clearly define our approach on this and stick to it, not change it whenever it suits out needs. That leaves the door too wide open for other nations to take the stand of "yea, we agreed to that but that agreement and our signature on it means absolutely nothing"

[SUPDOG]

Here's the thing about all of this..... we've signed on to several international agreements over the years that have been centered around the humane treatment of prisoners, captives, etc, including the Geneva Convention. To go against those agreements behind closed doors makes us appear to be two-faced. Well, not even "appear", it does make us two-faced. The USA becomes the country that speaks with a forked tongue.

If we believe certain "Jack Bauer" techniques are best suited for our national security these days, then we need to announce that we are no longer adhering to the international agreements we had previously signed and that we will use some unpopular methods of interrogation to obtain information we are looking for.

Of course, one would ask what information did you get from so & so the 100th time you waterboarded him that you didn't have after the 99th time.... but that's another topic for another time.

It is disgraceful and it is harmful to our global image for us to stand on our pedastal, single out some individual countries and chastise them on their human rights treatment of anyone - citizens or otherwise - while we ourselves are violating some human rights issues that we voluntarily signed onto ourselves. It's the hypocrisy of the situation on an international stage that has everyone's concern here. We need to clearly define our approach on this and stick to it, not change it whenever it suits out needs. That leaves the door too wide open for other nations to take the stand of "yea, we agreed to that but that agreement and our signature on it means absolutely nothing"

They did not have 99 "waterboarding sessions", per se. the amount of times they have water poured on their faces was 250+. Big difference, and I would be happy to have that "different disscusion for a different time" right now. ;)

The rest of you typing could have been saved for a different post because:

1. It was not torture.

2. Geneva conventions have nothing to do with terrorists.


I am however content that you did not contest the validity of the information. Waterboarding saved American lives and not one of the terrorists were tortured. Let us all be thankful and give credit to Bush for not allowing left wing emotion change his mind.



:)

[SUPDOG]

Reading through the article I saw the same guys also said:

And?

Sounds like that is his opinion. The reality is that the lefty nut job admitted that waterboarding got us good information that likely saved lives.

So I present the question again. If 3,000 American lives were to be lost from an impending terrorist attack and the only option is to waterboard, what would you do?


The "world image thing" is the most goofy argument I have ever heard. Obama is beginning to prove that he is a foreign policy disaster with his "let's be friends" nonsense, and the world leaders are making a fool out of him. Please tell me you can see this reality.

Anyway terrorists cut off fingers, toes and in the end HEADS. They will do that NO MATTER WHAT. We splash water on someones face and save lives.

Get a clue.

[Nevada_Ballin]

They did not have 99 "waterboarding sessions", per se. the amount of times they have water poured on their faces was 250+. Big difference, and I would be happy to have that "different disscusion for a different time" right now. ;)

The rest of you typing could have been saved for a different post because:

1. It was not torture.

2. Geneva conventions have nothing to do with terrorists.


I am however content that you did not contest the validity of the information. Waterboarding saved American lives and not one of the terrorists were tortured. Let us all be thankful and give credit to Bush for not allowing left wing emotion change his mind.



:)

The Geneva Convention is only one of many agreements we have in place for humane treatment of prisoners/captives. It doesn't begin and end with the GC.

Having "that conversation" would be pretty useless from our standpoint since neither one of us has ever been tortured for information nor have either of us tortured for information. But I'll leave you with this:

John McCain was tortured for years as a POW, did he help our enemies because of that torture?


.

[Gtrght77]

Unless you are ready to drink the koolaide, arguing with Supdog about anything is a waste of time.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Unless you are ready to drink the koolaide, arguing with Supdog about anything is a waste of time.

It's entertaining to make him choke on his own koolaid :)

[TheRealist]

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/29/100012.shtml

Tuesday, Nov. 29, 2005 9:55 a.m. EST
John McCain: Torture Worked on Me

Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.

Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!

In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.

"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."

The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."

Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."

The episode wasn't the only instance when McCain broke under physical pressure.

Just after his release in May 1973, he detailed his experience as a P.O.W. in a lengthy account in U.S. News & World Report.

He described the day Hanoi Hilton guards beat him "from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes."

"For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards . . . Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5 1/2 years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide, because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope."

McCain was taken to an interrogation room and ordered to sign a document confessing to war crimes. "I signed it," he recalled. "It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities."

"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."

That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.


Did Northern Vietnam "win"?

[Nevada_Ballin]

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/29/100012.shtml



Did Northern Vietnam "win"?

The point is really this - after all of that torture he went through, he baiscally provided them with nothing. The efforts of that torture, years of it, did not bring about the results the N.V. wanted.



.

[theanalogkid]

And?

Sounds like that is his opinion. The reality is that the lefty nut job admitted that waterboarding got us good information that likely saved lives.

So I present the question again. If 3,000 American lives were to be lost from an impending terrorist attack and the only option is to waterboard, what would you do?


The "world image thing" is the most goofy argument I have ever heard. Obama is beginning to prove that he is a foreign policy disaster with his "let's be friends" nonsense, and the world leaders are making a fool out of him. Please tell me you can see this reality.

Anyway terrorists cut off fingers, toes and in the end HEADS. They will do that NO MATTER WHAT. We splash water on someones face and save lives.

Get a clue.

I already suggested we should level Iraq to the ground because they do not value life the way we do and clearly are unable to govern themselves as the result of being told what do for centuries by strong men. You came back with some bleeding heart crap that I was foolish to think the Iraqis were incapable of governing themselves.

[Nevada_Ballin]

I already suggested we should level Iraq to the ground because they do not value life the way we do .......


We value life therefore we should wipe out life in another country as part of our values....

huh?

lol


.

[allend]

See, topics like this are what keep me from belonging to a party. This isn't even worth debating. Obama should have never approved any info to be released. If you/he/anyone wants to debate the types of tactics that we (America) is using then I don't have a problem with that. But you don't do it now. Not while we still have troops over there fighting. There's a time and a place for everything and this is not the time for this type of stuff to be going on. And then everybody is siding w/their party. Again, people don't seem to be able to think independantly and that's a shame. Imagine if you were a troop over there risking your life and the people back home are complaining about the treatment of the POW's. And as I understand it everyone who was captured was not tortured, (and yes it was torture. Repubs want to make it sound like they just threw some water on these guys) just the four guys who the gov't felt had important info.
Lastly, if the torture gave information that "possibly" prevented another attack in the US how can anyone think that it's not worth it b/c it might hurt our image. I just think it was stupid to release these documents right now when it really wasn't necessary. We are a country at war. We're not over there playing freeze tag or duck duck goose.
I don't mean to go on and on but this thing has got me really angry. We've lost over 3,000 troops and people are complaining about waterboarding. I could see complaining about it if they were just doing it randomly to the citizens of that country but that's not the case. These were guys who actually played roles in terror attacks,

[SUPDOG]

The point is really this - after all of that torture he went through, he baiscally provided them with nothing. The efforts of that torture, years of it, did not bring about the results the N.V. wanted.



.

Maybe he didn't know too much. But he did give up some information.

Khalid Shek had some info though:

(CNSNews.com) (http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.



That was an important tid bit, no? Thoughts?

It is also important to note that "your president" failed to release additional information about countless other terrorist plots/groups that were discovered as a result of tough interrogations. I doubt you and GT would want to see those however......the head in the sand is SO much more comfortable. :)

Anyway, the purpose of this thread was to teach you a lesson. Many times we have had discussions about interrogation techinques. Your point was "they don't give information". It is apparent that you were wrong. Just like Obama and all the liberals were wrong. Now the gutless satan bastard isn't even man enough to release ALL of the memos. Doesn't that bother you?

I saw on Fox tonight some of the memos where they actually BLACK OUT the information about the many terrorist activities that were discovered as a result of waterboarding. Don't you think we should see those in all fairness? Answer my question.

[SUPDOG]

Unless you are ready to drink the koolaide, arguing with Supdog about anything is a waste of time.

Yeah, you like NB, were one of those "interogations do nothing" clowns.

By the looks of your post it is easy to see that you lost your courage. Why not dispute my post instead of the "koolaide" response? I think we both know why huh?

Funny what some facts will do, eh?;)

[Nevada_Ballin]

Yeah, you like NB, were one of those "interogations do nothing" clowns.

By the looks of your post it is easy to see that you lost your courage. Why not dispute my post instead of the "koolaide" response? I think we both know why huh?

Funny what some facts will do, eh?;)

so you are saying that john mccain turned on us.... the same guy you wanted for President.

Exactly what info did we get, do you know? of course you don't, it's classified info.

.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

The thing I don't understand is where were all these people back in 2002 when this stuff was being briefed to congress. People are up in arms now but it seems like congress was up to speed on the tactics (maybe not the number of times it was used) but they definately were briefed on what was going to be used.

It just makes me dislike politics even more. If we are going to go after the previous administration officials who drafted the opinions then they should also disclose who in congress was briefed on the tactics back in the early 2000s so we can see how many of them stood up then vs who is standing up now.

-TS

[Gtrght77]

The thing I don't understand is where were all these people back in 2002 when this stuff was being briefed to congress. People are up in arms now but it seems like congress was up to speed on the tactics (maybe not the number of times it was used) but they definately were briefed on what was going to be used.

It just makes me dislike politics even more. If we are going to go after the previous administration officials who drafted the opinions then they should also disclose who in congress was briefed on the tactics back in the early 2000s so we can see how many of them stood up then vs who is standing up now.

-TS


I remember a lot of people being angry about this. Bush just did it anyways.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

I remember a lot of people being angry about this. Bush just did it anyways.

Then were are the letters they wrote to the administration protesting the "tactics". Where were the speeches. The point I am making is Bush briefed congress on the techniques they were going to use. If that is the case then why didn't the Dems in that meeting run to the nearest podium and have a press conference denouncing what they knew. If they couldn't come public then they should have written letters to the administration voicing their concern and reminding them of how they believed what the administration was doing was torture.

I am not saying we shouldn't look into this stuff (even though part of me says we shouldn't because it will set up a bad situation where each administration comes in and tries to find a way to screw the previous administration) but if we are going to start calling people out then we should call EVERYBODY out...

I just hate all this monday morning quarterbacking and selective outrage that seems to dominate the American political machine...

-TS

[SUPDOG]

I remember a lot of people being angry about this. Bush just did it anyways.

So, what are your thoughts GT? It seems that waterboarding got us information that saved thousands of lives.

Is it your thought that we should have let those innocent people die?

Do you think it is fair to only release half of the memos?

After only releasing half of the memos, do you think it is fair to talk about procecuting those who gave the okay for waterboarding?

Answer my questions or go away.

[SUPDOG]

Then were are the letters they wrote to the administration protesting the "tactics". Where were the speeches. The point I am making is Bush briefed congress on the techniques they were going to use. If that is the case then why didn't the Dems in that meeting run to the nearest podium and have a press conference denouncing what they knew. If they couldn't come public then they should have written letters to the administration voicing their concern and reminding them of how they believed what the administration was doing was torture.

I am not saying we shouldn't look into this stuff (even though part of me says we shouldn't because it will set up a bad situation where each administration comes in and tries to find a way to screw the previous administration) but if we are going to start calling people out then we should call EVERYBODY out...

I just hate all this monday morning quarterbacking and selective outrage that seems to dominate the American political machine...

-TS

The points you make are excellent. However, the reality about why the current joke of an administration doesn't "call out everbody" is because:

1. The average American doesn't have a clue about these things and Obama is taking advantage of their ignorance.

2. Those who are kooky left wingers are so filled with hate that THEY DON'T CARE as long as GOP's are put in jail. Right Nevada? Right Gt?

3. If Bammy calls out his Dems pals about this it hinders the witch hunt, and he simply can't have that.

Obama has left the potential of prosecuting in the hands of Eric Holder, who is a well-known terrorist supporter.

It AMAZES me how blinded these Obama-bot are to what is going on.

The evil one Obama is doing the things that conservatives said he would do all along.


Just like I told you.

[SUPDOG]

so you are saying that john mccain turned on us.... the same guy you wanted for President.

Exactly what info did we get, do you know? of course you don't, it's classified info.

.

I am glad something this serious is a game to you. Unreal. :eek:

If you think Obama wouldn't have sung like a canary in that situation you are smoking too much wacky weed. Please don't tell me you think Obama has more charecter than McCain.

Anyway, the questions that you are trying to spin away from, indicates the reality that you are not man enough to eat the crow dinner I have placed before you.

FACTS:

Waterboarding worked.

Obama has failed to release the entire story because of potential political gains. i.e. Putting those who fought the war on terror in jail. Black marking the conservative movement, etc.

Obama has put the fate of brave americans who saved lives in the hands of a terrorist loving scumbag.


Hmmm, no wonder you aren't denouncing these actions. This is what you crazy kooky kooks wanted all along. Shameful.

[SUPDOG]

Anyone seen San Antonio? Did he retire again? :confused:

[Nevada_Ballin]

I am glad something this serious is a game to you. Unreal. :eek:

If you think Obama wouldn't have sung like a canary in that situation you are smoking too much wacky weed. Please don't tell me you think Obama has more charecter than McCain.

Anyway, the questions that you are trying to spin away from, indicates the reality that you are not man enough to eat the crow dinner I have placed before you.

FACTS:

Waterboarding worked.

Obama has failed to release the entire story because of potential political gains. i.e. Putting those who fought the war on terror in jail. Black marking the conservative movement, etc.

Obama has put the fate of brave americans who saved lives in the hands of a terrorist loving scumbag.


Hmmm, no wonder you aren't denouncing these actions. This is what you crazy kooky kooks wanted all along. Shameful.

As usual, your post reply to me is full of "ignore and avoid".

Now, I ask you to read my first post in this thread again and really try to comprehend my position on this - what do you get? (the ignore)

Then, answer the McCain question. (the avoid)

Let's see if you can stay focused on something for at least 10 seconds :)

.

[SUPDOG]

As usual, your post reply to me is full of "ignore and avoid".

Now, I ask you to read my first post in this thread again and really try to comprehend my position on this - what do you get? (the ignore)

Then, answer the McCain question. (the avoid)

Let's see if you can stay focused on something for at least 10 seconds :)

.

Yes, you are much like the liberal talking heads when it comes to the reality of successful interrogations that saved innocent lives-- you have no comment.


Understandable.

However, it is really sad to me that you don't have the courage to admit that Obama is a dangerous president, and his tactics are dispicable. I guess that would destroy the bubble, eh?

I thought you were a "fairness" guy?

[Nevada_Ballin]

Yes, you are much like the liberal talking heads when it comes to the reality of successful interrogations that saved innocent lives-- you have no comment.


Understandable.

However, it is really sad to me that you don't have the courage to admit that Obama is a dangerous president, and his tactics are dispicable. I guess that would destroy the bubble, eh?

I thought you were a "fairness" guy?

Dude are you on shrooms today? I had a very clear comment about it. If you didn't get it, that's not my problem.

As for Obama being a dangerous President, that's just sheer hate on your part because your guy didn't win.

But I'll tell you what, Obama is going to be tested severely right now with what is happening in Pakistan. Let me ask you up front, right now, what do you think he should do regarding that situation?

.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Well Sup? Come on, I'm waiting... what should Obama do? Don't wait for him to do something and then automatically take the opposite side after the fact (or wait for your GOP pundits to give you an argument against it). Put yourself on the line here. What should be done?


.

[resnor]

So, Nevada, your position is that we shouldn't have waterboarded, correct? You're saying that no matter the information that we got, we shouldn't have used the techniques that got us that information, correct? No matter that we stopped a "second wave" plot to crash an airliner into building in Los Angeles. The fact is, Nevada, that waterboarding is nowhere near the interrogation/torture techniques employed by our enemies. Personally, I don't believe that waterboarding is torture. If you believe it is, you have to believe that it is psychological torture. There are many things that can fall into that category...sleep deprivation, bright lights, loud music, etc. Are we to simply sit down and ask these guys questions? What do we do if they don't want to answer? It's easy to sit back on a pedestal and say that we should be above that. The fact is, however, there are times when we have to use enhanced interrogation to get information that is vital to American security.

What do YOU think we should do, Nevada, about Pakistan? Are you for invading them? Us rightwingers have been asking you that question for about a year now. Now, the scenario that we were talking about is coming to fruition, and you're now deciding to pose the question to us? LOL. Comical. We have to do whatever is necessary to prevent terrorists from acquiring nuclear weapons. How is the left wing going to deal with that reality?

[Nevada_Ballin]

So, Nevada, your position is that we shouldn't have waterboarded, correct? You're saying that no matter the information that we got, we shouldn't have used the techniques that got us that information, correct?


Hold on, before i even read the rest of your post, i had to stop right there because I have to ask: What did I say in this thread that would make you think I, personally, was against using those techniques?

[SUPDOG]

Well Sup? Come on, I'm waiting... what should Obama do? Don't wait for him to do something and then automatically take the opposite side after the fact (or wait for your GOP pundits to give you an argument against it). Put yourself on the line here. What should be done?


.

Hmmm, well, talk about a ducky duck, but I'll play the game. I hope you return the favor and answer my questions without bringing John McCain into the fold, aight?

This is not a dicussion about Pakistan, and I have not read up on the situation as of yet. The "no-brainer" is to do WHATEVER it takes to keep terrorists from getting their hands on Nukes.

As far as you GOP talking point nonsense, I am man enough to give credit where it is do. I believe the surge in Afghanistan was a good move. I think he also did the right thing in giving the go ahead in the Somali issue.

There ya go.


Now its your turn. :)

[Nevada_Ballin]

What do YOU think we should do, Nevada, about Pakistan? Are you for invading them? Us rightwingers have been asking you that question for about a year now. Now, the scenario that we were talking about is coming to fruition, and you're now deciding to pose the question to us? LOL. Comical. We have to do whatever is necessary to prevent terrorists from acquiring nuclear weapons. How is the left wing going to deal with that reality?

I will address this. Pakistan is a Taliban problem. For the last 7 years I've always said the Afghan war was the war we should have been fighting all along. We dropped the ball big time on that and the problem in Pakistan is now the result of that.

As for the present problem itself, it's pretty clear to me. Tell the Pakistani goverment to either handle it immediately or we will. Bust out the F-22 Raptors and let's have at it. Golden opportunity to also kill bin Laden since there's a big chance he's hiding out in that Swat area. Obama has his hand's full with this problem. Fortunately for us, it's going to be pretty easy to get some alliance support for an invasion into Pakistan than it was for Iraq. Everyone knows about Taliban and everyone knows Pakistan has nukes.... no one wants to see the two become one.

.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Just a note for reference sake; waterboarding is classified as a war crime. Please refer to my first post in this thread before commenting.


.

[resnor]

Hold on, before i even read the rest of your post, i had to stop right there because I have to ask: What did I say in this thread that would make you think I, personally, was against using those techniques?

You said that the U.S. had to hold ourselves to a higher standard, blah, blah, blah. That makes me think, combined with previous discussions of waterboarding, that are against us using that tactic.

Also, terrorists are NOT the same soldiers of a regular military. I don't believe that the Geneva Convention applies to them.

[SUPDOG]

You said that the U.S. had to hold ourselves to a higher standard, blah, blah, blah. That makes me think, combined with previous discussions of waterboarding, that are against us using that tactic.

Also, terrorists are NOT the same soldiers of a regular military. I don't believe that the Geneva Convention applies to them.

You are correct sir. However, Nevada is pulling all the stops out to avoid his crow dinner. Right now he is playing the "I will keep deflecting until it becomes pointless game" . Typical. I thought the questions were pretty simple. His deflection speaks volumes about what he thinks though. When La-la clashes with reality.....you know the rest. ;)

At least he is attempting to deflect though. San an and GT, basically haven't even showed up.

[conviction]

Terrorists don't have any rights in my opinion. America should do what is in the best interest in America. We are in war with terrorist who want us all dead because of how we live. We need to show no mercy and wipe these mother f'ckers out.

[Nevada_Ballin]

You said that the U.S. had to hold ourselves to a higher standard, blah, blah, blah. That makes me think, combined with previous discussions of waterboarding, that are against us using that tactic.

Also, terrorists are NOT the same soldiers of a regular military. I don't believe that the Geneva Convention applies to them.


Again, this isn't just Geneva Convention agreement but we also have to consider this:

The four Geneva Conventions of 1949 related to the treatment of prisoners of war (POW) and civilian detainees, as well as the Hague Regulations define the status of detainees and state responsibility for their treatment. Other international law relevant to human rights and to the treatment of prisoners may also apply. For example, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights prohibits “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.” The U.N. Declaration on Human Rights and the U.N. Convention Against Torture (CAT) is also relevant.

Federal statutes that implement the relevant international law, such as the War Crimes Act of 1996 and the Torture Victim Protection Act, as well as other criminal statutes with extraterritorial application are also relevent.

***********************************************

This isn't about whether I personally agree with torture or not, or even whether the definition of torture existed & happened in the Abu Gharib cases. It IS about violating what we've signed onto. The world sees this. And it asks, "Hell, if this USA's agreements aren't any good, ours don't have to be either".

.

[Nevada_Ballin]

You are correct sir. However, Nevada is pulling all the stops out to avoid his crow dinner. Right now he is playing the "I will keep deflecting until it becomes pointless game" . Typical. I thought the questions were pretty simple. His deflection speaks volumes about what he thinks though. When La-la clashes with reality.....you know the rest. ;)

At least he is attempting to deflect though. San an and GT, basically haven't even showed up.


lol@you, the deflector of ALL deflectors on this board. McCain question please?

Comment (in a relative manner) on my initial post on this thread please?

Of course, you won't directly address what I said. You can't. Therefore, we get the usual "put NB in the liberal box and call him all the things that apply to that box, that way I don't have to really have a true discussion about this topic"....

ya keep on keepin' it political Sup.... no surpise.

.

[SUPDOG]

lol@you, the deflector of ALL deflectors on this board. McCain question please?

Comment (in a relative manner) on my initial post on this thread please?

Of course, you won't directly address what I said. You can't. Therefore, we get the usual "put NB in the liberal box and call him all the things that apply to that box, that way I don't have to really have a true discussion about this topic"....

ya keep on keepin' it political Sup.... no surpise.

.


Well, I answered already. Were my answers not detailed enough?

I guess I didn't want to waste too much time on them because they are completely elementary and plain silly.

No, really they are nevada. I thought you would have come up with something better by now.

Anyway, maybe I'll ask some elementary questions.

Ready?


What is worse:

Cutting off fingers to recieve information?

Or

Pouring water over someone's face?


Which would you rather have done if given the choice?

[Nevada_Ballin]

Well, I answered already. Were my answers not detailed enough?

I guess I didn't want to waste too much time on them because they are completely elementary and plain silly.

No, really they are nevada. I thought you would have come up with something better by now.

Anyway, maybe I'll ask some elementary questions.

Ready?


What is worse:

Cutting off fingers to recieve information?

Or

Pouring water over someone's face?


Which would you rather have done if given the choice?


Exactly what i meant by deflector of ALL dflectors in this forum.

How about answering my question on what Obama should do about Pakistan? Or would you rather wait for Hannity or Limbaugh to move your puppet fingers on the keyboard for you?

[SUPDOG]

Exactly what i meant by deflector of ALL dflectors in this forum.

How about answering my question on what Obama should do about Pakistan? Or would you rather wait for Hannity or Limbaugh to move your puppet fingers on the keyboard for you?

This is what I posted earlier in reference to what Obama should do.

The "no-brainer" is to do WHATEVER it takes to keep terrorists from getting their hands on Nukes.


Okay?


Now it is your turn.

Fingers?

or


Water sprinkles?

[Nevada_Ballin]

This is what I posted earlier in reference to what Obama should do.

The "no-brainer" is to do WHATEVER it takes to keep terrorists from getting their hands on Nukes.


Okay?


Now it is your turn.

Fingers?

or


Water sprinkles?

lol.. that's it? The proverbial "whatever it takes"?

I posted my thoughts in an answer to Resnor. Scroll up.

[SUPDOG]

lol.. that's it? The proverbial "whatever it takes"?

I posted my thoughts in an answer to Resnor. Scroll up.

What else is there?

We should invade if needed. There is that what you want?


I read your post to resnor. It did not even come close.

Fingers cut off or waterboarding.

Pick one.

[resnor]

Nevada, I don't believe that terrorists are deserving of the same rights of other prisoners or detainees. They are scum, and should be treated as such. I believe that when they engage in the activities that they engage in, they forfeit their right to be treated as other people. That's it. At least if when we captured an Iraqi soldier that was in Saddam's army, he was in a government force. These terrorists are acting outside the bounds of a government, and their only goal is the destruction of the United States. They, in my opinion, have no rights. Waterboard them, put them in a cell with a caterpillar, put them through sleep deprivation, loud music, bright lights, whatever. We're not chopping off fingers...we're not shoving bamboo shoots under their fingernails...we're not putting their head in a box, and then putting a hungry rat in there...we're pouring water on their head.

Question: I can see that the first time or two that the guy was waterboarded, he didn't know what was going on. But after 20, 30, 40, 50, times, he KNEW he wasn't going to drown. If he didn't, he's incredibly stupid. Should have made it easier to resist when it was done that much, wouldn't you think?

[sanantonio]

Just my 2 cents.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66895.html

[SUPDOG]

Just my 2 cents.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66895.html

Actually, that was someone else's two cents. Which is as worthless as the two cents you would have provided, provided that you would have actually given your two cents instead of someone else's. Get it? Good.

Maybe you should re-read the intial link, where obammy's own guy admits the information we got was a result of interrogation tactics.

Bush was right. You were wrong. :p

[Nevada_Ballin]

Nevada, I don't believe that terrorists are deserving of the same rights of other prisoners or detainees. They are scum, and should be treated as such. I believe that when they engage in the activities that they engage in, they forfeit their right to be treated as other people. That's it. At least if when we captured an Iraqi soldier that was in Saddam's army, he was in a government force. These terrorists are acting outside the bounds of a government, and their only goal is the destruction of the United States. They, in my opinion, have no rights. Waterboard them, put them in a cell with a caterpillar, put them through sleep deprivation, loud music, bright lights, whatever. We're not chopping off fingers...we're not shoving bamboo shoots under their fingernails...we're not putting their head in a box, and then putting a hungry rat in there...we're pouring water on their head.

Question: I can see that the first time or two that the guy was waterboarded, he didn't know what was going on. But after 20, 30, 40, 50, times, he KNEW he wasn't going to drown. If he didn't, he's incredibly stupid. Should have made it easier to resist when it was done that much, wouldn't you think?

The terrorist "labeling" is a big problem in this argument - it's an "invoke fear through label" effort. A prisoner is a prisoner. Every other war we've been in, the enemy wished us dead and defeated. No difference between them and today's terrorists.

And again, there seems a huge effort to ignore the points of my first post in this thread. If we're going to do those things then we need to get off the agreements we are in.


.

[SUPDOG]

The terrorist "labeling" is a big problem in this argument - it's an "invoke fear through label" effort. A prisoner is a prisoner. Every other war we've been in, the enemy wished us dead and defeated. No difference between them and today's terrorists.

And again, there seems a huge effort to ignore the points of my first post in this thread. If we're going to do those things then we need to get off the agreements we are in.


.

Terrorists kill innocents. Remember 9/11. They bomb children for kicks. When I say you are Lala Ballin', this is why.

[Gtrght77]

Terrorists kill innocents. Remember 9/11. They bomb children for kicks. When I say you are Lala Ballin', this is why.

If they even had anything to do with 9-11.


Youtube September clues.

[sanantonio]

Actually, that was someone else's two cents. Which is as worthless as the two cents you would have provided, provided that you would have actually given your two cents instead of someone else's. Get it? Good.

Maybe you should re-read the intial link, where obammy's own guy admits the information we got was a result of interrogation tactics.

Bush was right. You were wrong. :p

Just as I thought your still an (fill in the blank) living in a fish bowl. :p