Torture

[Nevada_Ballin]

Ok, let's open this can of worms :)

Here is the dictionary meaning:

Torture:
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain

2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

************************************************** ******

Let's get right to it with the waterboard, people like Jesse Ventura (former SEAL who has been waterboarded in training), and during the 08 campaign John McCain, Mike Huckabee, Joseph Biden, Chris Dodd, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton all stated that waterboarding is torture.

Then we have Supdog who says it isn't.

Thoughts?

[SUPDOG]

Supdog is right.

Supdog would also volunteer to be waterboarded in a heartbeat.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War. On January 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a controversial front-page photograph of two U.S soldiers and one South Vietnamese soldier participating in the waterboarding of a North Vietnamese POW near Da Nang. The article described the practice as "fairly common". The photograph led to the soldier being court-martialled by a U.S. military court within one month of its publication, and he was discharged from the army. Another waterboarding photograph of the same scene, referred to as "water torture" in the caption, is also exhibited in the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City.


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[Nevada_Ballin]

Supdog is right.

Supdog would also volunteer to be waterboarded in a heartbeat.

In other words, you've never been waterboarded, therefore you do not know - but you will sit there and say someone like a Navy SEAL, who has gone through it, that they are wrong?

lol

[Paydirt404]

Anybody signing up for that is not playing with a full deck.

[Nevada_Ballin]

Anybody signing up for that is not playing with a full deck.

lol... @ Sup's volunteering..... only one card in his deck = joker


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[sideoutshu]

I don't care whether it is torture or not. We should be using all means at our disposal to get information out of these animals. If the shoe was on the other foot they would be decapitating people with a hack saw.

[Nevada_Ballin]

I don't care whether it is torture or not. We should be using all means at our disposal to get information out of these animals. If the shoe was on the other foot they would be decapitating people with a hack saw.

ah, that's a different topic altogether. See, we have these agreements that we signed over the last 75 years or so. Not just the Geneva Convention but several others as well. You know where i stand on that - if we aren't going to honor them, then officially opt-out of them instead of pretending that we are something we're not.

As for whether we should use any means possible, let's just say I'm a big Jack Bauer fan :) (last week Kiefer Sutherland was arrested after he headbutted some dude at a party for ramming into Brooke Shields - wish I cudda saw that!)

[Gtrght77]

It wont matter the GOP will be a minority party for the next 30-40 years so there Morality problems wont be an issue for the rest of the US.


I wonder what Jesus would want us to do? :)

[sideoutshu]

It wont matter the GOP will be a minority party for the next 30-40 years so there Morality problems wont be an issue for the rest of the US.


I wonder what Jesus would want us to do? :)

Wanna bet?

[Gtrght77]

Wanna bet?


Just watch and see.

[sideoutshu]

ah, that's a different topic altogether. See, we have these agreements that we signed over the last 75 years or so. Not just the Geneva Convention but several others as well. You know where i stand on that - if we aren't going to honor them, then officially opt-out of them instead of pretending that we are something we're not.

As for whether we should use any means possible, let's just say I'm a big Jack Bauer fan :) (last week Kiefer Sutherland was arrested after he headbutted some dude at a party for ramming into Brooke Shields - wish I cudda saw that!)
Ok, even though you talk about these "agreements" every chance you get, you have yet to cite the language of any such agreement that states terrorists are entitled to the same rights as a POW. Further, why would be be bound by the terms of the agreement as to parties who were not party to the agreement?

You can't get the benefit of an agreement without being bound by the agreement yourself.

[sideoutshu]

Just watch and see.

No, I mean do you want ot bet. Not am I able to "watch" and "see". I mean the ignorance of beleiving EITHER party could remain in control for 30-40 years at a time is mindboggling in and of itself. Not to mention the fact that people are beginning to see that all of Obama's campaign promises were just a dog and pony show and that flashy smiles and teleprompters aren't going to fix the economy.

There is a real chance that if Obama can't significantly improve the economy and stop borrowing 50 cents for every dollar he spends, you guys may lose the White House in 2012.

[Nevada_Ballin]

George Bush, "The United States of America does not torture."


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[Nevada_Ballin]

No, I mean do you want ot bet. Not am I able to "watch" and "see". I mean the ignorance of beleiving EITHER party could remain in control for 30-40 years at a time is mindboggling in and of itself. Not to mention the fact that people are beginning to see that all of Obama's campaign promises were just a dog and pony show and that flashy smiles and teleprompters aren't going to fix the economy.

There is a real chance that if Obama can't significantly improve the economy and stop borrowing 50 cents for every dollar he spends, you guys may lose the White House in 2012.

Actually, the people are seeing that Obama is acting on just about every campaign promise. From Iraq to healthcare to alternative energy, he's been working his asz off to get things done, just like he promised. Obviously he isn't going to score a 100% on what he promised but I'll tell you what, he's done more to come through on his campaign promises than any President I've ever seen.

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[Nevada_Ballin]

From politifact:

The Obameter Scorecard
Promise Kept 29
Compromise 7
Promise Broken 6
Stalled 5
In the Works 63
No Action 404

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

And he's just barely over 100 days in office...

[sideoutshu]

From politifact:

The Obameter Scorecard
Promise Kept 29
Compromise 7
Promise Broken 6
Stalled 5
In the Works 63
No Action 404

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

And he's just barely over 100 days in office...

Those stats are meaningless without the criteria by which the above are classifed. Further, I am not speaking of actual word for word PROMISES, I am speaking of broad campaign themes that he hasn't stuck to like:

"Reigning in spending"
"Putting an end to partisan politics"
"Eliminating Lobbyists from the Political process"
"all troops out of Iraq in 16 months"
"take a stand against pork and earmarks"

and one of my personal favorites.....his promise that he would make America a "pay as you go" government.

etc, etc, etc.

[SUPDOG]

Those stats are meaningless without the criteria by which the above are classifed. Further, I am not speaking of actual word for word PROMISES, I am speaking of broad campaign themes that he hasn't stuck to like:

"Reigning in spending"
"Putting an end to partisan politics"
"Eliminating Lobbyists from the Political process"
"all troops out of Iraq in 16 months"
"take a stand against pork and earmarks"

and one of my personal favorites.....his promise that he would make America a "pay as you go" government.

etc, etc, etc.

DON'T SHATTER THE BUBBLE!:eek:

[FootballMecca]

The Obameter Scorecard
Promise Kept 29
Compromise 7
Promise Broken 6
Stalled 5
In the Works 63
No Action 404
Pirates killed with bare hands 2
Favorite sports teams Whoever is hot
Airtime playing b-ball against scrubs and woman 20 hours

[Nevada_Ballin]

Those stats are meaningless without the criteria by which the above are classifed. Further, I am not speaking of actual word for word PROMISES, I am speaking of broad campaign themes that he hasn't stuck to like:

"Reigning in spending"
"Putting an end to partisan politics"
"Eliminating Lobbyists from the Political process"
"all troops out of Iraq in 16 months"
"take a stand against pork and earmarks"

and one of my personal favorites.....his promise that he would make America a "pay as you go" government.

etc, etc, etc.


Ok, let's see...

Reigning in Spending:
Despite the overlay of economic recession from Bush to Obama, where unusual goverment spending has happened for both due to today's situations, Obama just recently put into place some things to reduce spending.

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama's detailed 2010 budget plan, due out Thursday, will propose to eliminate or consolidate 121 domestic and defense programs to save $17 billion, administration officials said Wednesday.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124162900144792405.html

Ending Partisan Politics:
From day one he has reached out to the GOP but they refuse the extended hand cuz, well, they are mostly too stuck up to anything that isn't strictly done their way. He's invited them to the white house, trid to give them cabinet posts, etc. But no, the GOP are too stuck on themselves to consider the word "cooperation".

Eliminating Lobbyists from the Political process
Point for you. He's reduced it but not elminated it like i had hoped.

All troops out of Iraq in 16 months
I believe this is on schedule. Check back in 12 months from now.

Take a stand against pork and earmarks
When he gets a normal bill to sign that's been drafted and congressionally approved while he's in office instead of one that was a carry over from the previous admin, we'll have a better look at what he does.


Politifact's Top 25 promises and how he is doing with them. Only 1 is a fail (lobbyists), the others are either kept, in the works or no action taken yet (remember, it's only been a little over 100 days in office) > http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/subjects/politifacts-top-promises/

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[SUPDOG]

never mind bubble still intact!

[Nevada_Ballin]

never mind bubble still intact!

wow, Supdog admitting to Obama accomplishments thus far, we're making progress with him!!!!


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[MonoxideChild]

Supdog, I'll take you up on that waterboarding offer. I'm dead serious. I'll take vacation and meet you somewhere and we can put it on youtube.

[dsteve]

nevada is a partisan moron.


out of IRAQ and RIGHT BACK INTO AFGANISTAN! hoooooraaaaaay!


Reign in spending? Yeah, cut our military. good job. how about the enourmous amount of money given to the banks thats basically all gone and now theyre asking for more? How about bailing out GM so they won't go bankrupt....Good idea, how many billions of dollars went into that venture to keep them afloat for a couple weeks? ****ING STUPID! should have let them fail, just like the banks. Thats what would have been good for the country but they "won't let a crisis go to waste". NATIONALIZE EVERYTHING! HOOOOORAAAAY! read some history, it doesn't work. Him firing the CEO of a private company, trying to set wages....its facsim. Look it up. (hint, avoid stereo typing it as a racist movement. see italy pre WW2/getting in bed with hitler. Jews were all over it in italy up until then and the american media basically gave the big moose-o-lini a hand job at every turn.)


Alternative energy? Why not nuclear? France does it. it works. But wait....all his cronies and huge corporations like GE are invested in other stuff that doesn't work (windmills and solar) so lets do that instead, **** the country. Oh yeah guess who pays for it? WE THE TAXPAYER! concerned about forien oil? how about drilling here instead of funding terrorism while we fine another energy source? Nope, doesnt wanna do that so they can all make a buck off the green bull****. how about water fusion cars that Gm had basically ready to go and the government cut the funding for it. Great idea huh?


you wanna talk about torture? pellosi is a liar. listen, if someone isnt killed or disfigured whats the big ****ing deal? John Mccain was tortured. Look at him. I'm sure his argument has a slippery slope argument 2 it and i can understand that but when youre dealing with the people we're dealing with, who arent covered under any convention....then WHO THE **** CARES?! realse the minutes from the meetings, tell us what people found out from dunking someones head in a little bit of water...then lets see all you ******s *****. The only reason youre on the side you are, is because youre a brain dead partisan tool.


the only people who think obama is doing a good job are idiots, left wing nuts/partisan tools (includes all the I hate bush mantra bull****) and ignorant black people who don't know **** about politics anyway. (horrray for double standards and race cards!) so which one are you?


everything this man is doing is part of the progressive movement. Basically elements of socialism/facsim thrown together with a smiley face. (rip george carlin) if you arent an ignorant tool in regards to history you would know everything he's doing right now doesnt work. MAJOR imporant people are predicting a depression when the corporate real estate bubble bursts. you think the hosing bubble was bad? Just you wait my friends. start with these...keep digging.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM8msY4rQ2E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOSv53yaCkc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppp-fhJBQyE

[Nevada_Ballin]

nevada is a partisan moron.


out of IRAQ and RIGHT BACK INTO AFGANISTAN! hoooooraaaaaay!


Reign in spending? Yeah, cut our military. good job. how about the enourmous amount of money given to the banks thats basically all gone and now theyre asking for more? How about bailing out GM so they won't go bankrupt....Good idea, how many billions of dollars went into that venture to keep them afloat for a couple weeks? ****ING STUPID! should have let them fail, just like the banks. Thats what would have been good for the country but they "won't let a crisis go to waste". NATIONALIZE EVERYTHING! HOOOOORAAAAY! read some history, it doesn't work. Him firing the CEO of a private company, trying to set wages....its facsim. Look it up. (hint, avoid stereo typing it as a racist movement. see italy pre WW2/getting in bed with hitler. Jews were all over it in italy up until then and the american media basically gave the big moose-o-lini a hand job at every turn.)


Alternative energy? Why not nuclear? France does it. it works. But wait....all his cronies and huge corporations like GE are invested in other stuff that doesn't work (windmills and solar) so lets do that instead, **** the country. Oh yeah guess who pays for it? WE THE TAXPAYER! concerned about forien oil? how about drilling here instead of funding terrorism while we fine another energy source? Nope, doesnt wanna do that so they can all make a buck off the green bull****. how about water fusion cars that Gm had basically ready to go and the government cut the funding for it. Great idea huh?


you wanna talk about torture? pellosi is a liar. listen, if someone isnt killed or disfigured whats the big ****ing deal? John Mccain was tortured. Look at him. I'm sure his argument has a slippery slope argument 2 it and i can understand that but when youre dealing with the people we're dealing with, who arent covered under any convention....then WHO THE **** CARES?! realse the minutes from the meetings, tell us what people found out from dunking someones head in a little bit of water...then lets see all you ******s *****. The only reason youre on the side you are, is because youre a brain dead partisan tool.


the only people who think obama is doing a good job are idiots, left wing nuts/partisan tools (includes all the I hate bush mantra bull****) and ignorant black people who don't know **** about politics anyway. (horrray for double standards and race cards!) so which one are you?


everything this man is doing is part of the progressive movement. Basically elements of socialism/facsim thrown together with a smiley face. (rip george carlin) if you arent an ignorant tool in regards to history you would know everything he's doing right now doesnt work. MAJOR imporant people are predicting a depression when the corporate real estate bubble bursts. you think the hosing bubble was bad? Just you wait my friends. start with these...keep digging.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM8msY4rQ2E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOSv53yaCkc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppp-fhJBQyE

Ha!.. Mr. Arm Up Aginst The Government is calling me a partisan moron... now that's f'in funny... lol

1. Aghanistan is the war we SHOULD have been fighting all along. It was the first place we went, not Iraq. But the switch in focus chasing down non-existent WMDs made us drop the ball in Afghan - now we have what we have today, finshing a job we started a long time ago.

2. Reign in spending - go ahead and ignore reality. First of all, the bailouts were initiated under Bush, it is not solely Obama's doing.

3. Alternative energy - a subject you probably don't want to get into with me at any length, i used to work in the biodiesel industry. The fact that you said wind and solar don't work tells me you are not qualified to speak on this topic.

4. "you wanna talk about torture? pellosi is a liar." - way to correlate with the actual topic of the thread..... not. The topic is what defines torture, not if we should do it or not. Get your game up homie.

5. Don't care about any youtube links.

[dsteve]

Ha!.. Mr. Arm Up Aginst The Government is calling me a partisan moron... now that's f'in funny... lol

1. Aghanistan is the war we SHOULD have been fighting all along. It was the first place we went, not Iraq. But the switch in focus chasing down non-existent WMDs made us drop the ball in Afghan - now we have what we have today, finshing a job we started a long time ago.

2. Reign in spending - go ahead and ignore reality. First of all, the bailouts were initiated under Bush, it is not solely Obama's doing.

3. Alternative energy - a subject you probably don't want to get into with me at any length, i used to work in the biodiesel industry. The fact that you said wind and solar don't work tells me you are not qualified to speak on this topic.

4. "you wanna talk about torture? pellosi is a liar." - way to correlate with the actual topic of the thread..... not. The topic is what defines torture, not if we should do it or not. Get your game up homie.

5. Don't care about any youtube links.



1. he ran on getting our troops home and now sends them somewhere else. Yeah, way to keep your promise. Got news for you buddy, the real war is iran, not iraq, not afganistan. The only reason you support this is because your party is doing it.

2. No ****, but obama certainly kept the ball rolling and the debt climbing didnt he? Why is it bad that bush did but now obama is spending even more, in more industries and it's okay? partisan tool.

3. whats wrong with nuclear? Wind and solar dont work. you go ahead and buy a solar car. have fun when it rains. people don't want that bull****. wind power....how much land are you gonna use up for that? then youve gotta connect it to the grid somehow right? Theres a reason no other country relies on either of these. they dont work, nuclear does.

4. it def has a relevance in the discussion because you mentioned all those people who agree about the torture. Fact is, the whole debate is just an effort to keep the bush admin in the news for the up coming elections. Dems and reps knew what was going on, didnt say anything and now the dems are throwing people under the bus. Thats the point about pelossi.

5. maybe instead of being an ignorant moron you should watch the clips. Gerald celante and petter schiff are much smarter than both of us. go learn something. only one of them is from an actual tv show, glenn beck but only because the first one is a radio interview and sometimes people have trouble watching a radio clip. The last one is straight from peter schiff and talks directly about a speech obama made in regards to the economy.

[SUPDOG]

Supdog, I'll take you up on that waterboarding offer. I'm dead serious. I'll take vacation and meet you somewhere and we can put it on youtube.

Northwest Pennsylvania. I can find the time.

[Nevada_Ballin]

1. he ran on getting our troops home and now sends them somewhere else. Yeah, way to keep your promise. Got news for you buddy, the real war is iran, not iraq, not afganistan. The only reason you support this is because your party is doing it.

2. No ****, but obama certainly kept the ball rolling and the debt climbing didnt he? Why is it bad that bush did but now obama is spending even more, in more industries and it's okay? partisan tool.

3. whats wrong with nuclear? Wind and solar dont work. you go ahead and buy a solar car. have fun when it rains. people don't want that bull****. wind power....how much land are you gonna use up for that? then youve gotta connect it to the grid somehow right? Theres a reason no other country relies on either of these. they dont work, nuclear does.

4. it def has a relevance in the discussion because you mentioned all those people who agree about the torture. Fact is, the whole debate is just an effort to keep the bush admin in the news for the up coming elections. Dems and reps knew what was going on, didnt say anything and now the dems are throwing people under the bus. Thats the point about pelossi.

5. maybe instead of being an ignorant moron you should watch the clips. Gerald celante and petter schiff are much smarter than both of us. go learn something. only one of them is from an actual tv show, glenn beck but only because the first one is a radio interview and sometimes people have trouble watching a radio clip. The last one is straight from peter schiff and talks directly about a speech obama made in regards to the economy.

1. They came home? When did they come home? And no, the war on the ground is in Afghan - if we're talking about getting rid of al-qaeda & taliban, who are the ones that attacked us, or should we kinda forget about that? Iran is another cold war situation.

2. Who said it was ok? Just keep it real when you talk about it instead of pointing a finger at half the problem. I remember not too long ago that Bush's boy in the treasury wanted all that money to disperse by himself with no strings attached. There's plenty of blame to go around with that on all sides of the aisle.

3. Again, you are not qualified to have an alternative enrgy discussion with me.

4. Pelosi lying about whether she knew or not has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of torture.

5. No desire to watch youtube clips.

6. Most important, resort to namecalling against me one more time and you'll get a 2 week ban. You want to have a discussion then we can do that. If you want to start slinging out insults at me (moron, tool) then you'll get a little forum vacation. I don't call anyone names in these discussions (except for Supdog but we got a special relationship huh Sup? :) ) and i expect the same form everyone. Refer to my sig if you need further explanation.

[YoungVito]

Actually, the people are seeing that Obama is acting on just about every campaign promise. From Iraq to healthcare to alternative energy, he's been working his asz off to get things done, just like he promised. Obviously he isn't going to score a 100% on what he promised but I'll tell you what, he's done more to come through on his campaign promises than any President I've ever seen.

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I'm gonna have to agree with Nevada on this one. Whether you like what President Obama has done or not, the fact of the matter is that if you didn't like the things he said he was gonna do on the campaign trail, then you're not gonna like the things he has done so far. Everything he has done was promised on the trail. Now granted, he has had to adjust the scale of his promises to some degree (this is why we have a co-equal branch of gov't called Congress), but for the most part, there have been no surprises.

So what does this all mean? It means that for better or worse...THIS IS WHAT AMERICA VOTED FOR. All that is necessary for the Democrats to do in order to maintain their control of gov't is to NOT OVERREACH. Sure, they're in a position to impose some radical change to an old and broken system, but look no further than LBJ to see what happens when a party overreaches...enchanted in no small part by the hubris that comes with having an overwhelming majority.

Now, this is VERY MUCH A POSSIBILITY. Because this is what happens when a party stays in power for a considerable amount of time. The caviat is whether or not President Obama has the political chops to keep the Democrats in Congress at bay.

Now, back to the original subject of whether or not waterboarding is torture. First, let me say that I find it comical that SUPDOG would "volunteer" himself to be waterboarded. "What are you waiting for buddy? We've all seen the 'how to' videos". Go ahead and have someone do it to you in your back yard. That is...if you're really 'bout it'.

To be honest, this argument is moot. We can argue its effectiveness all day long, and there will be good points on either side of the coin, what can't be argued...is that ITS ILLEGAL.