Abortion

[levdgg]

What's the big deal?

[conviction]

hahaha

(10characters)

[Paydirt404]

People believe its wrong to to kill a fetus.

People want to tell you what to do with your own body.

No one can reach a solution.

[RicoVacilon]

It's a tough one. I'm usually a moral absolutist. On this case I must admit to being a bit more "gray area." For me, it's murder. But the gray area comes from where other people believe life to begin. If they don't believe it begins until birth then it's not murder and they can rationally justify abortion. Something tells me, though, that some people delude themselves into thinking it's ok.

[levdgg]

People believe its wrong to to kill a fetus.

People want to tell you what to do with your own body.

No one can reach a solution.


Well let's solve it today on this forum. We have some great minds on here.

Personally, I don't know where I'd be without it. I would never bring the wood without that option up my sleeve. And what a waste of talent that would be. Birth control pills are also a must, ladies.

[Paydirt404]

Well let's solve it today on this forum. We have some great minds on here.

Personally, I don't know where I'd be without it. I would never bring the wood without that option up my sleeve. And what a waste of talent that would be. Birth control pills are also a must, ladies.

The only thing about that is the same politicians that vote it down, have teenage daughters who have had the procedures done to keep mommy and daddy's political career afloat. Too much hypocrisy and grey areas to reach a conclusion. Therefore, I mind my own business, and keep others out of mine.

[Bearfanmike20]

I dont like it in any way... it feels wrong to me.. but...

I could not look a woman who was raped in the eye and tell her she has to carry that baby...

I have no sympathy for the stupid girl who couldn't keep them closed though.

[levdgg]

Not trying to step on anyone's beliefs, because as a personal choice I completely understand the pro-life viewpoint. But most people who are against abortion as a societal issue are just giving lip service to it. Disgusting/twisted as they may be, those who attack abortion clinics/doctors etc. at least have conviction in their beliefs.

If you are to say human life begins at conception, let me ask this: If you heard thousands of toddlers were being slaughtered every day on the basis that the parents made a mistake or regretting having a baby, wouldn't the country be outraged? Wouldn't these toddler slaughterhouses consume everyone's social consciousness and conversation, and flood the media, regardless of political affiliation or religious belief? I can't wrap my head around why abortion isn't treated the same way.

I just ****ed your minds with some truth. Ponder it.

Endless thread begin.....now.

[RicoVacilon]

If you are to say human life begins at conception, let me ask this: If you heard thousands of toddlers were being slaughtered every day on the basis that the parents made a mistake or regretting having a baby, wouldn't the country be outraged? Wouldn't these toddler slaughterhouses consume everyone's social consciousness and conversation, and flood the media, regardless of political affiliation or religious belief? I can't wrap my head around why abortion isn't treated the same way.

Because EVERYONE believes a toddler is alive. Not everyone believes a zygote, embryo, or fetus is alive.

[levdgg]

Because EVERYONE believes a toddler is alive. Not everyone believes a zygote, embryo, or fetus is alive.
Yes. You're missing my point. I'm saying why wouldn't those who believe an embryo is alive, treat it an abortion the same way they would the above scenario. I've never understood that.

[RicoVacilon]

Yes. You're missing my point. I'm saying why wouldn't those who believe an embryo is alive, treat it an abortion the same way they would the above scenario. I've never understood that.

Because, as I just said, not everyone agrees. You think just because I believe it's alive means I should impose my ideology on everyone else? But that's what's so wrong with the world right now!

[levdgg]

Because, as I just said, not everyone agrees. You think just because I believe it's alive means I should impose my ideology on everyone else? But that's what's so wrong with the world right now!

No. I'm saying that if there was what amount to mass murder just around the corner from you, wouldn't your outrage consume you beyond engaiging in mere debate over the subject?

[dsteve]

Because EVERYONE believes a toddler is alive. Not everyone believes a zygote, embryo, or fetus is alive.


thats not true....lol some of the czars obama has doing think life begins until "the child realizes that there is a tomorrow".


the point being is.....when does it end?

[RicoVacilon]

No. I'm saying that if there was what amount to mass murder just around the corner from you, wouldn't your outrage consume you beyond engaiging in mere debate over the subject?

Dude, I've answered your question 3 times already. Stop trying to read it for what you want it to say and start reading it for what I said.

[RicoVacilon]

thats not true....lol some of the czars obama has doing think life begins until "the child realizes that there is a tomorrow".

Citation please.

[levdgg]

Dude, I've answered your question 3 times already. Stop trying to read it for what you want it to say and start reading it for what I said.

No you haven't. I'm not trying to start an argument here, as this board tends to breed. I'm thirsting for answers. Please re-read. You are one of the smarter cats on this board. It's a moral conundrum.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

I am pro-life in all cases even those involving rape (although I understand the conundrum in that situation) except when the life of the mother is at risk. I do belive people have the right to self preservation so if it is between the baby and the mother the mother has to right choose herself. I am against the death penalty as well (if anyone is wondering).

I belive life begins at conception and I don't know how that can even be an area of debate. I believe all life is of equal value and as I would not support the random killing of a person one day out of the womb I don't support the random killing of a person one day in the womb.

I don't believe that being pro-life infringes on a woman's reproductive rights. You have a choice whether to engage in sexual activity. Once you make that choice I believe you have assumed all the "risks" involved with having sex. One "risk" is that you might end up carrying another human inside of you that you will need your body to live for the next 40 weeks and that can't just kill because you don't want it there anymore. Just as if I choose to give you one of my kidneys I can't ask for it back in 6 months if I choose to give my body to a baby (and you do actively assume that risk by choosing to have sex) then I can't demand it back in 6 weeks.

That is why rape makes the situation less clear because there is no active choice by the woman to participate in the sexual activity. However on that I believe you don't undo one sin with another sin. I understand that for those who don't share my faith that this response is of little value for them. The situation of rape is a hard one to logically argue with people. You have to fall back on your faith so if your faith says that it is OK to kill a baby or "abort of fetus" (if that makes it easier to stomach for people) in that case then I am probably not going to convince you that my faith is any better than your faith.

I think abortion is the ultimate example of the "me-first", "actions should have no consequences" world we live in. I want the fun of having sex yet none of the responsibililty that comes with it. It isn't like there aren't many many many many ways to still get your nut off and not have to worry about pregnancy. It is almost to the point nowadays where if you do get pregnant you literally have to be trying to avoid all the safety nets.

-TS

[resnor]

Citation please.

Perhaps if you got out of the mainstream media, some of this wouldn't be new to you...

From the book, Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions, by Obama science czar, John Holdren:

The fetus, given the opportunity to develop properly before birth, and given the essential early socializing experiences and sufficient nourishing food during the crucial early years after birth, will ultimately develop into a human being.

So, you can see here, Obama's science czar, John Holdren, has put forth the idea that an infant, even after birth, is not a "human." It isn't until it has had food, and socializing experiences, that it becomes "human."

Here's a quote from Zeke Emmanuel, one of the driving forces behind Obamacare:

Strict youngest-first allocation directs scarce resources predominantly to infants. This approach seems incorrect.5 The death of a 20-year-old young woman is intuitively worse than that of a 2-month-old girl, even though the baby has had less life.40 The 20-year-old has a much more developed personality than the infant, and has drawn upon the investment of others to begin as-yet-unfulfi lled projects.

These things are just disgusting.

[MonoxideChild]

I think that was taken out of context. I don't think he meant that a toddler didn't deserve to live or wasn't an animal. He was explaining how we equate being "Human" with expressing learned behaivor and emotions. Just because we're human doesn't make us "Human". Social animals will not act in a typical way for that animal if it isn't shown how to.

Anyways, back on the subject. My personal stance on abortion is that I don't agree with it. However, I don't think I should use my point of view to stop someone from doing something they feel is right. You don't have to agree with something. It's not like every female in the U.S. is FORCED to have an abortion. If you don't ant an abortion or you're pro-life, don't get one. WE shouldn't be so quick to judge other people's actions like we do.

[TheRealist]

I am pro-life in all cases even those involving rape (although I understand the conundrum in that situation) except when the life of the mother is at risk. I do belive people have the right to self preservation so if it is between the baby and the mother the mother has to right choose herself. I am against the death penalty as well (if anyone is wondering).

I belive life begins at conception and I don't know how that can even be an area of debate. I believe all life is of equal value and as I would not support the random killing of a person one day out of the womb I don't support the random killing of a person one day in the womb.

I don't believe that being pro-life infringes on a woman's reproductive rights. You have a choice whether to engage in sexual activity. Once you make that choice I believe you have assumed all the "risks" involved with having sex. One "risk" is that you might end up carrying another human inside of you that you will need your body to live for the next 40 weeks and that can't just kill because you don't want it there anymore. Just as if I choose to give you one of my kidneys I can't ask for it back in 6 months if I choose to give my body to a baby (and you do actively assume that risk by choosing to have sex) then I can't demand it back in 6 weeks.

That is why rape makes the situation less clear because there is no active choice by the woman to participate in the sexual activity. However on that I believe you don't undo one sin with another sin. I understand that for those who don't share my faith that this response is of little value for them. The situation of rape is a hard one to logically argue with people. You have to fall back on your faith so if your faith says that it is OK to kill a baby or "abort of fetus" (if that makes it easier to stomach for people) in that case then I am probably not going to convince you that my faith is any better than your faith.

I think abortion is the ultimate example of the "me-first", "actions should have no consequences" world we live in. I want the fun of having sex yet none of the responsibililty that comes with it. It isn't like there aren't many many many many ways to still get your nut off and not have to worry about pregnancy. It is almost to the point nowadays where if you do get pregnant you literally have to be trying to avoid all the safety nets.

-TS

Couldn't agree more. The same concept is being applied everywhere. Abortions, mortgages, car industry, etc...

People take the rewards and try to leave everyone else with the consequences when their actions go ary.

[RicoVacilon]

No you haven't. I'm not trying to start an argument here, as this board tends to breed. I'm thirsting for answers. Please re-read. You are one of the smarter cats on this board. It's a moral conundrum.

I believe life starts at conception. I will admit that others may not. This is one of the few ethical gray areas as I'm usually an absolutist. I won't act on abortions happening because I view it as someone having a different definition of life than I do. Which is why I think the switch I've seen from "Abortion is murder" to "At 9 days old I have a heartbeat" is very smart. If we want to end abortion we need to change people's definition of "life."

[RicoVacilon]

I am against the death penalty as well (if anyone is wondering).

Here here.


I don't believe that being pro-life infringes on a woman's reproductive rights. You have a choice whether to engage in sexual activity.

I read an article a couple months ago talkin about this a bit. Back in the 70s this was a rallying cry for women because it symbolized the oppression of women. Since the 70s and with the advancement of gender equality in many more fields then before, younger women view abortion as much less an important of a rallying point. An interesting theory. . .


That is why rape makes the situation less clear because there is no active choice by the woman to participate in the sexual activity. However on that I believe you don't undo one sin with another sin.

It's a good point. This is the sort of irreconciliation in ethics I like to see. I don't believe religion is exlusivist. That side of things shouldn't be unswerving. But the actual actions should never be fudged in order to be less offensive to others. If everyone made their actions line up with their beliefs we'd be much better off.




I think abortion is the ultimate example of the "me-first", "actions should have no consequences" world we live in.

Unfortunately, the only cure I know for this disease is to grow out of it. And some people never do. :(

[RicoVacilon]

Perhaps if you got out of the mainstream media, some of this wouldn't be new to you...

There's no need to take a swing at me simply because I asked for a citation. I'm glad you provided them though because I agree they are all disturbing. And these people are ethicists???

[RicoVacilon]

I think that was taken out of context. I don't think he meant that a toddler didn't deserve to live or wasn't an animal. He was explaining how we equate being "Human" with expressing learned behaivor and emotions. Just because we're human doesn't make us "Human". Social animals will not act in a typical way for that animal if it isn't shown how to.

Words convey ideas. To say an infant isn't a human being yet has some powerful ideas behind it. There may be some more context behind it, but the blurb certainly does require some explanation. It's kind of like how Bush said the Executive Branch created the laws. Even as a misspeak that's a very scary quote.