How many of you are starting to have a change of heart about Obama...

[Bearfanmike20]

I gotta admit.... Im starting to think I was wrong about this guy.

Some things just bug me.

1. The Patriot Act Lives... Wasn't that a campaign promise??...

2. The Healthcare would be REQUIRED??..... Shouldn't it be my choice??..

3. Too much spending in my opinion. If this stuff doesn't pan out... then what???... More Spending???...

[RicoVacilon]

We'll see. If all this spending that was done with the goal being to jumpstart the economy continues once the economy gets back on its feet, then I have a problem. I'm not against the spending right now. I'm aware other economists say it's a bad choice. I'm also aware there are economists that say this is a good thing to do. So I'll let the proof be in the pudding. Another stimulus deal? Oh hell no.

I'm all for universal health care. And of course you'd be required to have insurance, that's the whole point. Just like I'm required to purchase flood insurance. Why? Because the people that don't have it get bailed out anyway. I have no idea how I feel about this plan though because: 1) it's hard as hell to find facts on it that aren't completely biased, 2) it's hard to invest the time into understanding it when it'll probably change anyway, 3) I think that's about it.

EDIT: Oh yea, overall I AM beginning to get a feeling. . . but we'll see. Haven't been totally convinced yet.

[Bearfanmike20]

We'll see. If all this spending that was done with the goal being to jumpstart the economy continues once the economy gets back on its feet, then I have a problem. I'm not against the spending right now. I'm aware other economists say it's a bad choice. I'm also aware there are economists that say this is a good thing to do. So I'll let the proof be in the pudding. Another stimulus deal? Oh hell no.

I'm all for universal health care. And of course you'd be required to have insurance, that's the whole point. Just like I'm required to purchase flood insurance. Why? Because the people that don't have it get bailed out anyway. I have no idea how I feel about this plan though because: 1) it's hard as hell to find facts on it that aren't completely biased, 2) it's hard to invest the time into understanding it when it'll probably change anyway, 3) I think that's about it.

EDIT: Oh yea, overall I AM beginning to get a feeling. . . but we'll see. Haven't been totally convinced yet.


Oh for sure being required to have insurance is not bad... what I mean is.. from what I understand about this new plan... if I was to lose my job.. and have to go on the government plan... if I get a new one I cannot go back to private insureance...???... Shouldn't that be my choice??? I prefer private insureance because I know i'm gonna get better and more importantly FASTER care. If I want to save the bucks and go on the gov plan... then I can do that under the understanding the the quality and speed of care wont be as good. I'm of course basing that standard on the governments who have the universal care and the long waiting lists for care. I dont wanna be on a waiting list If my gullbladder needs to come out... I want it out NOW!!! I want the option to go back on private insurance if its available to me.

Thats my problem with the insureance thing.

[sideoutshu]

At least you can admit it mike. Some of the guys on this board will go to their graves INSISTING that Obama is the best president regardless of performance and failed promises.

Obama and I are very similar in one regard. I have always told people that if I was half as good at the jobs I interviewed for as I was at interviewing, I would be the greatest lawyer on the planet. The democrats were only worried about getting someone elected, not getting someone in office that would do a competant job, or else Hillary would have been the nominee.

But alas.....so many people were fooled by the smile, speeches and shiny new suits. Couple that with the backlash from Bush and we have a president whose only significant experience was as a State Senator prior to entering office. Go figure that he is failing.

PS. If we are talking broken promises, lets not forget Iraq, GITMO, detainee rights, lobbyists, transparency, mandatory wait on signing bills, pay as you go, etc etc etc.

[Bearfanmike20]

At least you can admit it mike. Some of the guys on this board will go to their graves INSISTING that Obama is the best president regardless of performance and failed promises.

Obama and I are very similar in one regard. I have always told people that if I was half as good at the jobs I interviewed for as I was at interviewing, I would be the greatest lawyer on the planet. The democrats were only worried about getting someone elected, not getting someone in office that would do a competant job, or else Hillary would have been the nominee.

But alas.....so many people were fooled by the smile, speeches and shiny new suits. Couple that with the backlash from Bush and we have a president whose only significant experience was as a State Senator prior to entering office. Go figure that he is failing.

PS. If we are talking broken promises, lets not forget Iraq, GITMO, detainee rights, lobbyists, transparency, mandatory wait on signing bills, pay as you go, etc etc etc.

Damn its a shame.... I know its still a bit early.. but any good feelings I may have had are all but gone because the moves hes making just dont make sense to me. I've always been more of a independent. A true independent. I can see the arguments of both sides.

There isn't alot that I have heard so far that I'm all that happy about with this administration at this point.

The shame of it all is if he did know what he was doing.. with that commanding presence.. and the "shiny suits" he could have been the best ever. I think I got caught up with potential... and didn't pay as much attention to knowledge.

[Gtrght77]

I don't care about healthcare. I dont care if its forced or not, I just care how much it costs me.


The wars are still going, that is the main thing that bugs me. There is no rush really to get those finished. End both of them, let them take care of their own selves. Even if we went in and made a mess of it.

Sideout:

Nobody was fooled by anything. They had two choices, Uncle Fester and his retarded stuardess or Obama. Not a hard choice to make especially when the GOP had so much backlash towards them due to the Chimp in Chiefs policies the last 8 years. Bush is a big reason we are in this mess now.

[sideoutshu]

The shame of it all is if he did know what he was doing.. with that commanding presence.. and the "shiny suits" he could have been the best ever. I think I got caught up with potential... and didn't pay as much attention to knowledge.

Its funny you say that though. Cause i read a recent article about how Obama is generally disliked by the leaders of most european countires due to his "celebrity" and perceived ego.

[Paydirt404]

Im not having a change of heart, the man deserves a chance just like others have gotten before him.

[Gtrght77]

Damn its a shame.... I know its still a bit early.. but any good feelings I may have had are all but gone because the moves hes making just dont make sense to me. I've always been more of a independent. A true independent. I can see the arguments of both sides.

There isn't alot that I have heard so far that I'm all that happy about with this administration at this point.

The shame of it all is if he did know what he was doing.. with that commanding presence.. and the "shiny suits" he could have been the best ever. I think I got caught up with potential... and didn't pay as much attention to knowledge.

You are giving up very early though. The biggest gripe I have is the lack of things done. Remember Obama is just one of the people trying to get things done. I blame more on the Dems in congress they have the floor and they dont want to do anything it seems.

Politics is Politics, no president is really going to rise above politics.

[Gtrght77]

Its funny you say that though. Cause i read a recent article about how Obama is generally disliked by the leaders of most european countires due to his "celebrity" and perceived ego.

Thats funny because I read most countries respect us more now that he is in charge instead of Bush.

[sideoutshu]

Sideout:

Nobody was fooled by anything. They had two choices, Uncle Fester and his retarded stuardess or Obama. Not a hard choice to make especially when the GOP had so much backlash towards them due to the Chimp in Chiefs policies the last 8 years. Bush is a big reason we are in this mess now.

Ah.....it is all Bush's fault. How could I be so silly? :rolleyes:

And yes, you were fooled. 8 months ago, you weren't on these forums saying "obama isn't going to get the job done, but he is better then McCain" you were preaching his virtues like he was the second coming of Christ.

[Bearfanmike20]

You are giving up very early though. The biggest gripe I have is the lack of things done. Remember Obama is just one of the people trying to get things done. I blame more on the Dems in congress they have the floor and they dont want to do anything it seems.

Politics is Politics, no president is really going to rise above politics.

Yes.. but the things I was waiting to get done.. never did... (the patriot act) and the things that we maybe should have taken some time to do to get it right.. those are being rushed through and all that money is going out and once it does... well it doesn't seem to be used in the way it was intended to.

[sideoutshu]

Thats funny because I read most countries respect us more now that he is in charge instead of Bush.

That is an absolute 100% myth perpetuated by democrats who need some semblance of anything successful to cling to. What is the criteria you use to measure "respect"?

Better yet, what have we gotten for that "respect"? (besides increased aggression from North Korea, russia and Iran)

[Gtrght77]

Ah.....it is all Bush's fault. How could I be so silly? :rolleyes:

And yes, you were fooled. 8 months ago, you weren't on these forums saying "obama isn't going to get the job done, but he is better then McCain" you were preaching his virtues like he was the second coming of Christ.

He was and is still better then McCain. I wasnt fooled, I am not dogging him. Obama has a big mess on his hands. Many of them actually. Everyone talking like he has been in office for years or somthing.

You are making all that up to. I was wanting Hillary originally, but I was more happy with the fact that Bush was not going to be president any longer.

He hasnt taken multiple vacations yet. He hasnt allowed a large terror attack on us (must mean he is keeping us safe) No cities have been lost while we watched on TV. All there has been is politics, just a bunch of whiny loser GOP crying about everything.

[Gtrght77]

That is an absolute 100% myth perpetuated by democrats who need some semblance of anything successful to cling to. What is the criteria you use to measure "respect"?

Better yet, what have we gotten for that "respect"? (besides increased aggression from North Korea, russia and Iran)


Sure it us, like Bush was so respected by the rest of the world. :p

[sideoutshu]

He hasnt taken multiple vacations yet. He hasnt allowed a large terror attack on us (must mean he is keeping us safe) No cities have been lost while we watched on TV. All there has been is politics, just a bunch of whiny loser GOP crying about everything.

Just clear a few things up:

So 911 was bush's fault?

You know that Obama has played 18 holes every single weekend since this summer right?

Calling out a president who doesn't fulfill clear promises is "whining"?

[Gtrght77]

Just clear a few things up:

So 911 was bush's fault?

You know that Obama has played 18 holes every single weekend since this summer right?

Calling out a president who doesn't fulfill clear promises is "whining"?

Yes 9-11 was Bushs fault. He was in charge wasn't he?

I could care if Obama plays Golf, its not a weekly getaway to the Ranch while terror threats are coming in.

You have been whining since the day after the election. Your worst fear is the economy getting better and Obama taking credit for it.

[sideoutshu]

Yes 9-11 was Bushs fault. He was in charge wasn't he?

your logic is terrible beyond words. You make excuses for Obama by saying it is "bush's fault" and then claim that nonsense.


I could care if Obama plays Golf, its not a weekly getaway to the Ranch while terror threats are coming in.

What terror threats are refering to specifically? Are you under the impression that the Bush was not working at the Ranch? Or that the Ranch was not equipped with an office?



You have been whining since the day after the election. Your worst fear is the economy getting better and Obama taking credit for it.

That's liberals for ya. Anytime you want to hold a democrat accountable for something THEY SAID THEMSELVES ....it is "whining". lmao

[Bearfanmike20]

*applies the breaks*

Look... I'm not looking to get into a dem vs rep argument.

I had higher expectations for the Obama admisitration and at the end of the 1st quarter... Hes trailing by a touchdown right now.

[Gtrght77]

Sorry Sideout your side had their chance and they Phugged it up so bad that even Stuart Smalley was a better option then anyone with a (R) by their name. How about taking some responsibilty for the mess you helped create by electing our last president to two terms?

[sideoutshu]

Sorry Sideout your side had their chance and they Phugged it up so bad that even Stuart Smalley was a better option then anyone with a (R) by their name. How about taking some responsibilty for the mess you helped create by electing our last president to two terms?

But you just said that any president presiding at the time of a "mess" takes responsibility for it right? So how can the current problem be attributed to Bush?

[Gtrght77]

But you just said that any president presiding at the time of a "mess" takes responsibility for it right? So how can the current problem be attributed to Bush?

Did this mess not start last year? :p

[sideoutshu]

Did this mess not start last year? :p

are you really ignorant of osama bin laden's existence while Clinton was President?

[Gtrght77]

are you really ignorant of osama bin laden's existence while Clinton was President?


And?

Bush had how many years to catch him?

[RicoVacilon]

You are giving up very early though. The biggest gripe I have is the lack of things done. Remember Obama is just one of the people trying to get things done. I blame more on the Dems in congress they have the floor and they dont want to do anything it seems.

Politics is Politics, no president is really going to rise above politics.

That reminds me--I really hate Pelosi.

[RicoVacilon]

Yes 9-11 was Bushs fault. He was in charge wasn't he?

Yea, I think the evidence is pretty sufficient that high level decisions resulted in 9/11 happening. Whether it was just not taking threats seriously enough or an actual inside job is up for debate. But the fact that people in the Bush administration could have done more to act on intelligence that something was up, but chose not to is pretty incontrovertible.

[RicoVacilon]

But you just said that any president presiding at the time of a "mess" takes responsibility for it right? So how can the current problem be attributed to Bush?

lol

Is it so much old news that you forget the economic disaster happened while Bush was still president?

[resnor]

LOL

This is ridiculous. Don't act like Bush didn't inherit problems...just like Clinton didn't inherit problems...or H.W. Bush didn't inherit problems...or Reagan didn't inherit problems...on and on back through every President. Every President inherits problems. However, Obama is NOT solving problems...he's creating more problems. His spending is through the roof. He's added over a trillion dollars to our debt...IN 8 MONTHS. For crying out loud, when are you guys guying to quit saying, "But he's only been in office for X amount of time!!" It's been 8 months, and unemployment is at or above 10%, even though Obama promised that if the stimulus were passed, we wouldn't go above 8 or 8.5%. The dude is in over his head, and doesn't have a clue.

By the way, what is this crap about Obama not taking vacations? Are you for real? He went on a world-wide vacation, I mean, apology tour. Not to mention, I can only IMAGINE the outrage from people on here if Bush had taken that New York City date night that Obama took. I can only imagine the outrage that would have been on here if it were the Bush administration that had done the photo op over NYC with Air Force One.

Get a grip.

[sideoutshu]

Yea, I think the evidence is pretty sufficient that high level decisions resulted in 9/11 happening. Whether it was just not taking threats seriously enough or an actual inside job is up for debate. But the fact that people in the Bush administration could have done more to act on intelligence that something was up, but chose not to is pretty incontrovertible.

9/11 happened wen Bush had been in office for 6 months. You don't think the planning of the attack, creation of sleepers cells in countless American cities, training of pilots, financing, etc. started to happen before that?

Cmon man. You act like Clinton didn't have Bin Laden in the palm of his hand and let him go.

[TheRealist]

Not going to interject into your guys' current argument, but I think the thread title says it all...."a change of heart".

So many people are drawn towards the things that "feel" good that they turn their minds off. The truth of the matter is that even policy-makers with the best intentions make tremendously bad policy whose results often act adversely to their intentions.

I think that President Obama IS a geniunely nice person with good intentions, but that he empathizes too much and as a result misinterprets ineffective policy as good policy.

I understand that there is absolutely no way to stop our ability to "feel" and empathize (this is what makes us human) but when our feelings act contrary to logic and history, then we run into problems.

Our problem is that we tend to try to rationalize our feelings and as a result, we dispel the tried and tested policy (of freedom) that has made us top dog and the envy of all the other countries on Earth.

I too, before this last election took a long and hard look at Barack Obama's website and probably "felt" the exact same emotions conjured by the majority of his supporters. "Hope", "Change", "Truth", "Transparency" evoke very powerful emotions when his predecessor tended to disregard or not stand for any of them at all. It was only when I put my mind first instead of my heart, did I realize that his goals that made me "feel" so uplifted as an individual would act contrary to what truly was a push for individual freedom.

We need to start using the mind. Making policy on the basis of "feeling" alone is like a cancer. It infects our heart with profound emotions, spreads to all the other parts of our body and eventually renders the brain useless. The brain is there with the sole purpose to think for itself, it is not the hearts function to assume multiple roles.

[JoeJGibbs]

I think that uninformed voters allowed themself to believe that any president could instantly bring about change like magic.

I think the people who may becoming frustrated with Obama are the ones who thought Obama middle name was Merlin. Those people are just misguided pie-in-the-sky people.

On the flip side the anti Obama people who were saying, "He can't just change things magically, it will take time." are the SAME ONES saying "he's not changing anything, where's the change!?!" And using that as the focal point.

I dont think you can have your cake and eat it too. If you already knew change was a long road, why is it that big of a deal if you may be correct?
It's almost like these people want to be the kids that tell everyone, "There is no santa claus." :p


Case in point.....:p


*applies the breaks*
Look... I'm not looking to get into a dem vs rep argument.
I had higher expectations for the Obama admisitration and at the end of the 1st quarter... Hes trailing by a touchdown right now.

[Bearfanmike20]

I think that uninformed voters allowed themself to believe that any president could instantly bring about change like magic.

I think the people who may becoming frustrated with Obama are the ones who thought Obama middle name was Merlin. Those people are just misguided pie-in-the-sky people.

On the flip side the anti Obama people who were saying, "He can't just change things magically, it will take time." are the SAME ONES saying "he's not changing anything, where's the change!?!" And using that as the focal point.

I dont think you can have your cake and eat it too. If you already knew change was a long road, why is it that big of a deal if you may be correct?
It's almost like these people want to be the kids that tell everyone, "There is no santa claus." :p


Case in point.....:p


No.... no... no.... I didnt think hed fix it all at once but I did expect him to follow some campaign promises. The patriot act still lives and I was actually hopeing for a longer more drawn out plan. I think hes trying to throw everything hes got at this beast and I think its just smiling at him.

I'm worried that if he spends all the money... that we dont have anyway... then what??

I'm worried that people wont have a choice on healthcare and lot of people will be out of jobs when the Insurance companies fall. I dont feel bad for the companies themselves but the millions of employees of thos companies I do.

I like his ideals.... Im not oposed to the gov subsedised healthcare but as an OPTION. Not a requirement.

Most importantly now the rumor is that he will be taxing the middle class now too. That is a HUGE break in the campaign promises.

Basically he lied to get in and that isn't sitting well with me.

[NumenorBlader]

I think that uninformed voters allowed themself to believe that any president could instantly bring about change like magic.

I think the people who may becoming frustrated with Obama are the ones who thought Obama middle name was Merlin. Those people are just misguided pie-in-the-sky people.

On the flip side the anti Obama people who were saying, "He can't just change things magically, it will take time." are the SAME ONES saying "he's not changing anything, where's the change!?!" And using that as the focal point.

I dont think you can have your cake and eat it too. If you already knew change was a long road, why is it that big of a deal if you may be correct?
It's almost like these people want to be the kids that tell everyone, "There is no santa claus." :p


Case in point.....:p

+1.

I like Obama. Most of the UK and Europe likes him too. Thing is, he's in such an extraordinary situation its nothing to be overlooked. When we're in the worst recession for 80 years, and even the best economists have conflicting opinions as to what to do, it is going to be difficult. If you don't spend taxpayers money on stimuli packages then you risk major companies going under, and who knows what could happen to the banking/housing system in that case. If you encourage protectionism, then the rest of the world gets f'ed. I think spending/temporary part ownership is the best of an extremely bad bunch.

As a result of spending/buying toxic debt brings tax hikes, and everyone in the US seems to hate that word... tax... lol.

I think for the most part people have to give Obama time, because Obama's fate is linked to the economy, which we also have to give time. It's gonna be hard these next few years, that's a given (Obama or not). Verily, be it Obama (or wouldve been McCain), you gotta give them time. The economists are saying another 2 years before any semblence of growth occurs again. That to me is the deadline Obama. 2 years. January to January.

Unfortunetly we don't have the ability to see parallel worlds. This is one of those moments where it would be really handy... oh well.

Blader.

[sideoutshu]

On the flip side the anti Obama people who were saying, "He can't just change things magically, it will take time." are the SAME ONES saying "he's not changing anything, where's the change!?!" And using that as the focal point.

I dont think you can have your cake and eat it too. If you already knew change was a long road, why is it that big of a deal if you may be correct?

It's a big deal because it emphasizes the point we were all making during the election that Obama's ENTIRE campaign theme was a load of bullsheit.

He knew that he couldn't deliver on the promises, yet he kept lying to the American people because the people who voted for him were dumb enough to believe it. All the while saying hope-change-different kind of politics-change-hope-transparency blah blah blah.

[sideoutshu]

+1.

I like Obama. Most of the UK and Europe likes him too.

I keep hearing this over and over. Where is the evidence?

Further, why does it matter what European civilians think of our president?

[NumenorBlader]

I keep hearing this over and over. Where is the evidence?

Further, why does it matter what European civilians think of our president?

Evidence - the success of the Obama rallies in places like Germany, the better press coverage he gets when he comes to the UK and the way he talks with Gordan Brown (the way its protrayed) and so on. When he was elected/sworn I remember reading a lot in different papers about the European reaction and it was generally good.

If we are excluding politicians (which I think you were implying), then for people it changes the level of trust in the US, in terms of future voting to parties affiliated with the US (e.g. France), future pledges in the Middle East and so on. It also, for many, changes the idea that Americans are ignorant and arrogant people.

Does it matter a great deal? Maybe not the most important. But then again, what does it matter to average US citizens? If you're not a politician then all you can do is shout and scream and how much does that do, ever (in these middle ground democracies that don't end up being Weimar-esque)? The only time you can generally change things is every 4 years, and that ship wont be back until 2012. Obama could be terrible in these next 2 years and brilliant the next 2. All that matters is how you look when the ballot box is out.

This is why democracy is so very flawed... practically the best, theoretically we need rule by the wise! :D

Blader.

[sideoutshu]

Evidence - the success of the Obama rallies in places like Germany, the better press coverage he gets when he comes to the UK and the way he talks with Gordan Brown (the way its protrayed) and so on. When he was elected/sworn I remember reading a lot in different papers about the European reaction and it was generally good.

That rally in Germany was before he got elected. And yes, he may get a little favorable coverage while on the "America apology tour" but why is that something you watn to see in a president? It is that same weakness that has empowered Russia, NK and Iran into more aggression then they showed in Bush's entire 8 years.

I have actually read the opposite about European leaders. I have heard that they think Obama is a prima donna and dislike him and his enormous elitist ego.



If we are excluding politicians (which I think you were implying), then for people it changes the level of trust in the US, in terms of future voting to parties affiliated with the US (e.g. France), future pledges in the Middle East and so on. It also, for many, changes the idea that Americans are ignorant and arrogant people. .

Who cares what level of trust foreign civilians have in our President? Don't our actions "change the level of trust in the US?" (ie: trying to leave Poland high and dry by backing out of the missile defense shield, etc.)

Do you really think that foreign leaders are going to change the way they vote on ANYTHING cause they like Obama's shiny veneers? Who cares whether foreigners think we are ignorant and arrogant? And why would having an arrogant leader like Obama chage that? Why is it desirable to change that unsubstantiated perception? Everyone hates the French and they seem to be getting along just fine.


All that matters to OBAMA is how you look when the ballot box is out.


Fixed it.

[theanalogkid]

It is that same weakness that has empowered Russia, NK and Iran into more aggression then they showed in Bush's entire 8 years.

Didn't Russia invade Georgia while Bush was President? Didn't NK start testing nuclear bombs while Bush was President? Didn't Iran's nuclear program start when Bush was president?

It was Bush after all who had Saddam Hussain removed from power, there for shifting the balance of power in the Middle East toward Iran's favor.

I think they've showed about the same amount of aggression regardless of who is President.

[RicoVacilon]

I keep hearing this over and over. Where is the evidence?

Further, why does it matter what European civilians think of our president?

Because we don't live in a vacuum?

Dude, if you're in court anything like you are in here. . . wow.

[sideoutshu]

Didn't Russia invade Georgia while Bush was President? Didn't NK start testing nuclear bombs while Bush was President? Didn't Iran's nuclear program start when Bush was president?

It was Bush after all who had Saddam Hussain removed from power, there for shifting the balance of power in the Middle East toward Iran's favor.

I think they've showed about the same amount of aggression regardless of who is President.

There was a clear escalation of aggression by all of these countries once Obama became President. And no, they didn't "start" nuclear programs under Bush, they "started" them long before. I was simply speaking of the escalation. Especially with NK.

[sideoutshu]

Because we don't live in a vacuum?

Dude, if you're in court anything like you are in here. . . wow.

Personal attacks and no substance. Well done.

Enlighten me since you are so knowledgable. How does "not living in a vaccum" as you describe it effect our lives. Please cite tangible examples, not just cheery catches phrases like "hope" and "change".

It is as if you guys think the economy is going to improve because some 15 year old kid in Germany thinks Obama is cool.

[RicoVacilon]

Personal attacks and no substance. Well done.

That was no personal attack. It was an attack on your logic and skills at debate. Which I believe are key to being an attorney.


Enlighten me since you are so knowledgable. How does "not living in a vaccum" as you describe it effect our lives.

Seriously???

[Gtrght77]

Because we don't live in a vacuum?

Dude, if you're in court anything like you are in here. . . wow.

I was thinking that exact thing this morning, his arguments are so weak for a lawyer.

[Play Action]

You guys are just now figuring that out...??:)

Obama needs time to fix this mess, it didn't get this way in 8 months. So more than likely it wont be fixed this year or the next or the next.

We patiently saw or economy get destroyed, so lets wait patiently for it to get fixed...

[TheSphinx 2.0]

I think that for the most part if foreign leaders like you is irrelevent unless you are in a position of weakness and need them for something but even then it is questionable. Just as I would hope the president of the US wouldn't make a policy decision because he thought PM Brown was "cool" I think most leaders make policy decisions on what is best for their country rather than because they like the person they are dealing with. Case in point has been getting any extra help for Afghanistan or taking GITMO prisoners or getting more aggressive with monetary policy. The press would have you believe the world loves Obama yet we haven't seen "the world" making policy decisions any different than they did under Bush which the press would have you believe was universally hated. Now obviously leaders are human and if they don't care for you they are probably less willing to "go that extra mile" and they probably will "stab you in the back" with other leaders but I just don't know of any examples where "being liked" has made a difference. Maybe it is because those things happen in back channels and we never see them but I can only base my opinion on what I see and so far I haven't seen anything that says being liked by others has resulted in more favorable policy decisions.

Actually I am beginning to believe it is the other way around. Countries respond when they think you are going to do something. That was one of the most interesting things with the inter-country relations during the run up to Iraq war in my opinion (and it is something little talked about). It wasn't until it was clear that the US was seriously looking to invade Iraq that the rest of the world got serious with trying to impose sanctions with some actual teeth to them. There was a lot of talk all the way back to Clinton (and most foreign leaders liked Clinton) and toothless resolution after toothless resolution was passed but nothing got done until it was clear that Bush was determined to invade the country. Is that good or bad...I don't know but it makes me believe that action rather than personal opinion matters. I bet it won't be until Isreal seriously looks like it is going to bomb Iran that people start to seriously look at doing something about the situation there with the nucluer program. The reason for this is clear and it is economics...withouth going into too much detail countries do what is best for their economies regardless of what they think of you so "being loved" or "being hated" is always trumped by the economic needs of the country you are dealing with.

On Obama's performance so far I think it is too early to tell . Economies take more than 8 months to turn so to judge him on the economy now is premature.

I don't like the basis of his policy which more and more looks like "tax and spend" to me. I don't like the constant demonization of people who have been successful. I think the reason we are in this situation is because politicians used debt to give the illusion of growth so I am not exactly thrilled that Obama is using debt to give the illusion of growth. I think that we will see positive growth soon and everyone will cheer but the question will be how sustainable it is. I am bearish (most of my economists friends of bearish) on the US longer-term because I think that when you use debt to grow the only way for more growth is more debt and anyone who has ever gotten over their head in credit card debt will tell you that eventually you can borrow no more and the house of cards collapses. However it is early days and many things could change for the better (and lets hope they do).

I think he has backtracked alot from the things he promised people on the campaign trail and I think it is sad to see fellow democrats give him a pass even though they complained endlessly when Bush did the same thing. That just validates my belief that people care more that their side "won" rather than what they side actually does.

Most of this stuff doesn't matter. Obama's fortunes as the president will hinge on the economy. He gets a 2nd term if the economy is doing well when it comes time for his reelection. That is actually what scares me. Like any politician he will do what he needs to do in the short-term to stay in office even if the policy has serious long-term detrimental effects.

-TS

[sideoutshu]

ithe press would have you believe the world loves obama yet we haven't seen "the world" making policy decisions any different than they did under bush which the press would have you believe was universally hated. Now obviously leaders are human and if they don't care for you they are probably less willing to "go that extra mile" and they probably will "stab you in the back" with other leaders but i just don't know of any examples where "being liked" has made a difference.


+1.....................

I keep asking these guys to tell me what "being liked" has gotten Obama, and the only answer I get is "oh yeah! well I bet you are a bad lawyer!":rolleyes:

[H1tStick]

I think that for the most part if foreign leaders like you is irrelevent unless you are in a position of weakness and need them for something but even then it is questionable. Just as I would hope the president of the US wouldn't make a policy decision because he thought PM Brown was "cool" I think most leaders make policy decisions on what is best for their country rather than because they like the person they are dealing with. Case in point has been getting any extra help for Afghanistan or taking GITMO prisoners or getting more aggressive with monetary policy. The press would have you believe the world loves Obama yet we haven't seen "the world" making policy decisions any different than they did under Bush which the press would have you believe was universally hated. Now obviously leaders are human and if they don't care for you they are probably less willing to "go that extra mile" and they probably will "stab you in the back" with other leaders but I just don't know of any examples where "being liked" has made a difference. Maybe it is because those things happen in back channels and we never see them but I can only base my opinion on what I see and so far I haven't seen anything that says being liked by others has resulted in more favorable policy decisions.

Actually I am beginning to believe it is the other way around. Countries respond when they think you are going to do something. That was one of the most interesting things with the inter-country relations during the run up to Iraq war in my opinion (and it is something little talked about). It wasn't until it was clear that the US was seriously looking to invade Iraq that the rest of the world got serious with trying to impose sanctions with some actual teeth to them. There was a lot of talk all the way back to Clinton (and most foreign leaders liked Clinton) and toothless resolution after toothless resolution was passed but nothing got done until it was clear that Bush was determined to invade the country. Is that good or bad...I don't know but it makes me believe that action rather than personal opinion matters. I bet it won't be until Isreal seriously looks like it is going to bomb Iran that people start to seriously look at doing something about the situation there with the nucluer program. The reason for this is clear and it is economics...withouth going into too much detail countries do what is best for their economies regardless of what they think of you so "being loved" or "being hated" is always trumped by the economic needs of the country you are dealing with.

On Obama's performance so far I think it is too early to tell . Economies take more than 8 months to turn so to judge him on the economy now is premature.

I don't like the basis of his policy which more and more looks like "tax and spend" to me. I don't like the constant demonization of people who have been successful. I think the reason we are in this situation is because politicians used debt to give the illusion of growth so I am not exactly thrilled that Obama is using debt to give the illusion of growth. I think that we will see positive growth soon and everyone will cheer but the question will be how sustainable it is. I am bearish (most of my economists friends of bearish) on the US longer-term because I think that when you use debt to grow the only way for more growth is more debt and anyone who has ever gotten over their head in credit card debt will tell you that eventually you can borrow no more and the house of cards collapses. However it is early days and many things could change for the better (and lets hope they do).

I think he has backtracked alot from the things he promised people on the campaign trail and I think it is sad to see fellow democrats give him a pass even though they complained endlessly when Bush did the same thing. That just validates my belief that people care more that their side "won" rather than what they side actually does.

Most of this stuff doesn't matter. Obama's fortunes as the president will hinge on the economy. He gets a 2nd term if the economy is doing well when it comes time for his reelection. That is actually what scares me. Like any politician he will do what he needs to do in the short-term to stay in office even if the policy has serious long-term detrimental effects.

-TS

Wow...That was a really well-written and insightful post. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

[Gtrght77]

+1.....................

I keep asking these guys to tell me what "being liked" has gotten Obama, and the only answer I get is "oh yeah! well I bet you are a bad lawyer!":rolleyes:

Yeah, like you never resort to those sort of tactics?


Anytime you are asked to present facts you say somthing like "are you retarded?"

[sideoutshu]

Yeah, like you never resort to those sort of tactics?


Anytime you are asked to present facts you say somthing like "are you retarded?"

No I don't. I said it to you...ONE TIME...when you asked what health advances have come out of the US, as if there are none. That is a STUPID question, flat out. Especially given the fact that I was talking about one specifically earlier in the thread.

[RicoVacilon]

All I'm sayin is if I say that I'm a musician and then talk about Yanni and John Tesh, ya'll are free to call me out on being a bad musician.

[sideoutshu]

All I'm sayin is if I say that I'm a musician and then talk about Yanni and John Tesh, ya'll are free to call me out on being a bad musician.

More ignorance. Just keep practicing "you want fries with that" and we'll call it even.

[RicoVacilon]

More ignorance. Just keep practicing "you want fries with that" and we'll call it even.

Say what? First, where's the ignorance? Second, the 3 months I worked fast food they never let me work the drive through.

[bk1998]

You know that Obama has played 18 holes every single weekend since this summer right?


I can't stand it when he's on the course out at Ft. Belvoir when I'm out there. They clear two holes in front of him, and two holes behind him... and it F's everyone else on the course up. Play slows to a crawl.

Plus, he can't even break 100...

Frustrating.

[RicoVacilon]

I can't stand it when he's on the course out at Ft. Belvoir when I'm out there. They clear two holes in front of him, and two holes behind him... and it F's everyone else on the course up. Play slows to a crawl.

Plus, he can't even break 100...

Frustrating.

Two holes? That's like. . . 700-1000 yards or so? Oh yea, that's WELL out of the range of any would be assassin. . .

[dsteve]

and they gave bush a hard time about the vaccations....really? both of them are inexcusable and should both be tried for treason.

[Gotti]

I can't stand it when he's on the course out at Ft. Belvoir when I'm out there. They clear two holes in front of him, and two holes behind him... and it F's everyone else on the course up. Play slows to a crawl.

Plus, he can't even break 100...

Frustrating.
same thing at Andrews AFB.