Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

[H1tStick]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/internal-memo-confirms-bi_n_258285.html


Ron Paul 2012

[RicoVacilon]

Ron Paul lost me with his "screw the poor" blog on the health insurance debate. Or else I'd support him.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

Dems lose sometimes...
Repubs lose sometimes...

Big Business never loses...

-TS

[dsteve]

Ron Paul lost me with his "screw the poor" blog on the health insurance debate. Or else I'd support him.


can u direct me to that blog? sounds interesting.

[dsteve]

id also like to know how someone who is all about government control and hand out programs supports ron paul, easily the most mainstream libertarian of all time. ron paul would never have anything to do with socialist programs that youve show support for on these forums.

[conviction]

Ron Paul lost me with his "screw the poor" blog on the health insurance debate. Or else I'd support him.

Yes, I'd like to see this as well

[RicoVacilon]

Does Google get blocked by your ISP or something?

http://www.house.gov/htbin/blog_inc?BLOG,tx14_paul,blog,999,All,Item%20not%20 found,ID=090720_3044,TEMPLATE=postingdetail.shtml

[levdgg]

That was a pretty logical, well articulated piece. I wouldn't interpret it as screwing the poor rather than preserving the sanctity (I use the term loosely) of health care by saving it from gov't bureaucracy.

[RicoVacilon]

That was a pretty logical, well articulated piece. I wouldn't interpret it as screwing the poor rather than preserving the sanctity (I use the term loosely) of health care by saving it from gov't bureaucracy.

If you can't afford health care you shouldn't get health care. That's about as clear cut a screw-the-poor position I can think of. /shrug

[levdgg]

If you can't afford health care you shouldn't get health care. That's about as clear cut a screw-the-poor position I can think of. /shrug

I took it as, you should not have a right to healthcare. There is a very strong argument for this point, the depths of which he obviously did not get into on one blog post. I think the problem is that people perceive this as "so and so has no right to live," if they don't have a right to healthcare, which is not what people like Paul are saying. It's a fine line and an awful position that is really is at the center of this healtcare debate.

I agree that the system is broken. But there's research into drugs/treatment that needs to be recouped and would otherwise not be created if not for the financial incentive to create them. Hospitals, doctors need to be funded and with universal healthcare you are likely going to see some serious overcrowding, which is already a major issue at most emergency rooms.

[sanantonio]

I supported Ron Paul but as I've said in the past I don't walk in lock step with every idea he has and this is one I don't agree with. I see it very differently then Dr. Paul and I feel that health care is a right of the people as a whole. If you believe that everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness then you would have to believe there are certain things that have to be done to maintain those inalienable rights. As an example we had to fight and die for all of the above. Life without a provision to try and maintain it is like driving without a spare tire. Everyone deserves a spare tire.

[sanantonio]

I took it as, you should not have a right to healthcare. There is a very strong argument for this point, the depths of which he obviously did not get into on one blog post. I think the problem is that people perceive this as "so and so has no right to live," if they don't have a right to healthcare, which is not what people like Paul are saying. It's a fine line and an awful position that is really is at the center of this healtcare debate.

I agree that the system is broken. But there's research into drugs/treatment that needs to be recouped and would otherwise not be created if not for the financial incentive to create them. Hospitals, doctors need to be funded and with universal healthcare you are likely going to see some serious overcrowding, which is already a major issue at most emergency rooms.

My health care provider is United Health Care and every year my out of pocket costs continue to grow. I have not seen the CEO's salary decrease not one penny from the $124.6M he makes annually :mad:.

[levdgg]

I supported Ron Paul but as I've said in the past I don't walk in lock step with every idea he has and this is one I don't agree with. I see it very differently then Dr. Paul and I feel that health care is a right of the people as a whole. If you believe that everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness then you would have to believe there are certain things that have to be done to maintain those inalienable rights. As an example we had to fight and die for all of the above. Life without a provision to try and maintain it is like driving without a spare tire. Everyone deserves a spare tire.

Good post. Like I said, it's tough to see how a "constitutionalist" like Paul can separate a right to life and a right to healthcare. I do believe there is a medium somewhere. The system could be better, but we are very far off from a system that would appease the people and the providers. Until, that happens, I don't see how we can overhaul the system and and provide universal healthcare. There are going to be some earth-shattering implications, especially early on. And I don't mean in the way people at these town halls are screaming for their country back. I mean the quality of care, the responsiveness of care, the toll it will take on our doctors, the financial implications on our paychecks etc. etc.

[RicoVacilon]

My health care provider is United Health Care and every year my out of pocket costs continue to grow. I have not seen the CEO's salary decrease not one penny from the $124.6M he makes annually :mad:.

I've got UHC as well. I don't have to pay for my premiums. The fact that my employer pays my continually rising premiums is, however, a main reason I haven't gotten a raise in 3 years!

[TheSphinx 2.0]

The one point that Paul said that was interesting is why isn't food considered a right and healthcare is. I had never thought about that but it does bring up interesting questions. If somebody doens't work to earn money they don't eat unless someone is willing to provide for them (like we do our kids). However the government doesn't have a universal food program that provides everyone with a daily meal. (But on the other hand the government does subsidize the heck out of farmers so maybe there is a stealth universal food program). If healthcare is a right why isn't food a right...what about a place to live (why isn't that a right). We say screw the poor when it comes to food and homes and transportation and clothing. Why is that any different from saying screw the poor with healthcare.

I thought the piece was thought provoking in a deeper sense as to distinquish a right from a good. It does seem like you can take this down any path you want if goods becomes rights.

I am still a proponent of universal healthcare because I think it can be done in a way that creates value for society as a whole. It has to be addressed. Doing nothing will definately lead to bankruptcy so that isn't an option. We have to do something...the real question is what is the something we do.

-TS

[theanalogkid]

You know Paul used to work at a charity hospital, and used to work out deals for people who couldn't pay full price. It's not like he hasn't been with people at that level.

He wants everyone to have affordable health care. He doesn't want it coming from the government. He sees government as part of the problem causing higher health care costs for everyone.

[RicoVacilon]

You know Paul used to work at a charity hospital, and used to work out deals for people who couldn't pay full price. It's not like he hasn't been with people at that level.

He wants everyone to have affordable health care. He doesn't want it coming from the government. He sees government as part of the problem causing higher health care costs for everyone.

Problem is not nearly enough doctors do that sort of thing. I have no problem with government. They're just as greedy as anyone else. I realize that. But if we look to where the "top" of society is everyone sees it as being the government. Not sui generis, but as regular people like us that are leading society. At least that is the hope.

[theanalogkid]

Problem is not nearly enough doctors do that sort of thing. I have no problem with government. They're just as greedy as anyone else. I realize that. But if we look to where the "top" of society is everyone sees it as being the government. Not sui generis, but as regular people like us that are leading society. At least that is the hope.

In the other thread you couldn't come up with 1 thing the government has done right, and you are expecting them to do health care correctly? Government has been involved in health care for years, and if it's broken then how do you expect contributors to the problem to fix it? I don't see how more red tape, and wasteful spending is going to fix health care so everyone gets it.

[RicoVacilon]

I never said government screwed anything up, so why do you expect me to list things they've done right? I don't get it. I'm not one of these anti-government goose stepping Unabomber wannabes.

[sideoutshu]

My health care provider is United Health Care and every year my out of pocket costs continue to grow. I have not seen the CEO's salary decrease not one penny from the $124.6M he makes annually :mad:.

Really? I am SUPER DUPER happy with United Healthcare. I just had Shoulder Surgery in December and my wife is 3 months pregnant and I have had a total of $112 out of pocket between the two.

They cut me off from Physical Therapy a little early, and the $15 co-pay for PT twice a week sucked but comparatively, I am very satisfied.

[RicoVacilon]

Really? I am SUPER DUPER happy with United Healthcare. I just had Shoulder Surgery in December and my wife is 3 months pregnant and I have had a total of $112 out of pocket between the two.

They cut me off from Physical Therapy a little early, and the $15 co-pay for PT twice a week sucked but comparatively, I am very satisfied.

Not all UHC's are created equal. But I am also very happy with what I get out of it. But like I mentioned before, I don't see my premium so I'm not even aware how much it is. I do know that the district uses it as a reason not to give us a raise. Which is probably not entirely false either.

[sanantonio]

Really? I am SUPER DUPER happy with United Healthcare. I just had Shoulder Surgery in December and my wife is 3 months pregnant and I have had a total of $112 out of pocket between the two.

They cut me off from Physical Therapy a little early, and the $15 co-pay for PT twice a week sucked but comparatively, I am very satisfied.


Then I'm happy for you and your family I guess it just sucks to be me.

[Nevada_Ballin]

I took it as, you should not have a right to healthcare. There is a very strong argument for this point, the depths of which he

No "right" to have healthcare? Doesn't that sound really absurd to you? That's like saying you don't have the right to have a job either. Everyone in this country should have a right to healthcare because it falls under the premise of the "pursuit of happiness". Part of that pursuit is one's health.

Granted the Declaration of Independence isn't an "official" document of law but it is the cornerstone in which the Contitution was built on.

[TheSphinx 2.0]

No "right" to have healthcare? Doesn't that sound really absurd to you? That's like saying you don't have the right to have a job either. Everyone in this country should have a right to healthcare because it falls under the premise of the "pursuit of happiness". Part of that pursuit is one's health.

Granted the Declaration of Independence isn't an "official" document of law but it is the cornerstone in which the Contitution was built on.

In that case why doesn't food fall under the "pursuit of happiness"? Hard to be happy without food. What about a house? Hard to pursue happiness living on the street. Why should we stop at healthcare? I can't pursue happiness without free public transporation...and free higher education...oooh, oooh and a boat.

I am being cheeky here but I think you get what I am trying to say.

-TS

[RicoVacilon]

In that case why doesn't food fall under the "pursuit of happiness"? Hard to be happy without food. What about a house? Hard to pursue happiness living on the street. Why should we stop at healthcare? I can't pursue happiness without free public transporation...and free higher education...oooh, oooh and a boat.

I am being cheeky here but I think you get what I am trying to say.

-TS

We DO provide food and shelter assisstance. As well we should.

[sideoutshu]

No "right" to have healthcare? Doesn't that sound really absurd to you? That's like saying you don't have the right to have a job either. Everyone in this country should have a right to healthcare because it falls under the premise of the "pursuit of happiness". Part of that pursuit is one's health.

Granted the Declaration of Independence isn't an "official" document of law but it is the cornerstone in which the Contitution was built on.

Whether you are right or wrong, that is horrible logic. It's like saying I have a right to a free PS3 because Madden is how I "pursue happiness".

[sideoutshu]

In that case why doesn't food fall under the "pursuit of happiness"? Hard to be happy without food. What about a house? Hard to pursue happiness living on the street. Why should we stop at healthcare? I can't pursue happiness without free public transporation...and free higher education...oooh, oooh and a boat.

I am being cheeky here but I think you get what I am trying to say.

-TS

I'm not going to be happy in this life until I get my toilet made of solid gold. Maybe I should ask the democrats to pay for it as part of my pursuit. :p

[TheSphinx 2.0]

We DO provide food and shelter assisstance. As well we should.

There is a government run national food program that makes sure everyone has 3 squares a day???

There is a government run national housing progam that makes sure everyone has a home to live in???

Where are these programs you speak of...and why haven't I heard of them yet.

-TS

[RicoVacilon]

Whether you are right or wrong, that is horrible logic. It's like saying I have a right to a free PS3 because Madden is how I "pursue happiness".

The faulty logic is unfortunately with your own reasoning. No one can function in society without food or shelter (or health). Check out the work of Maslow (sp?).

[RicoVacilon]

There is a government run national food program that makes sure everyone has 3 squares a day???

There is a government run national housing progam that makes sure everyone has a home to live in???

Where are these programs you speak of...and why haven't I heard of them yet.

-TS

Come on, I expect such replies from the trolls. You're quite a bit above that. And certain you saw I chose to use "assisstance" but you stooped to one of those convenient re-wordings. You're better than that.

However, programs like you mention sound like a great idea to me.

[levdgg]

No "right" to have healthcare? Doesn't that sound really absurd to you? That's like saying you don't have the right to have a job either. Everyone in this country should have a right to healthcare because it falls under the premise of the "pursuit of happiness". Part of that pursuit is one's health.

Granted the Declaration of Independence isn't an "official" document of law but it is the cornerstone in which the Contitution was built on.

NB

The way people argue semantics on this forum is why I've rarely posted here. I mean right in the sense that yes, you may have a right to healthcare, but it is conditional. Much in the same way we have a right to work, but nobody hands us jobs for nothing in return. It's a valid argument is all I'm saying. As it stands, we all have a right to healthcare under that definition, there are certain conditions under which we can obtain it -- having enough money, having an employer who provides it etc.

[theanalogkid]

No "right" to have healthcare? Doesn't that sound really absurd to you? That's like saying you don't have the right to have a job either. Everyone in this country should have a right to healthcare because it falls under the premise of the "pursuit of happiness". Part of that pursuit is one's health.

Granted the Declaration of Independence isn't an "official" document of law but it is the cornerstone in which the Contitution was built on.

You don't have a right to a job, you have to earn one, by sending out resumes and getting interviewed. If we all had a right to a job unemployement would be ZERO. It's not.

The government protects your right to not be discriminated against in hiring practices, nothing more though.

[Gotti]

Really? I am SUPER DUPER happy with United Healthcare. I just had Shoulder Surgery in December and my wife is 3 months pregnant and I have had a total of $112 out of pocket between the two.

They cut me off from Physical Therapy a little early, and the $15 co-pay for PT twice a week sucked but comparatively, I am very satisfied.
but how much do you pay monthly? i am fed employee with blue cross/blue shield. I pay over $300 a month and gov't adds over $700 a month. thats the family plan for wife, son and myself. over $12K a year??? your havin a baby this year (congrats btw) so that number isn't too bad, but what about next year when its just checkups??

[sideoutshu]

but how much do you pay monthly? i am fed employee with blue cross/blue shield. I pay over $300 a month and gov't adds over $700 a month. thats the family plan for wife, son and myself. over $12K a year??? your havin a baby this year (congrats btw) so that number isn't too bad, but what about next year when its just checkups??

When I negotiated my salary here, I gave up $5,000 a year so that they would insure my wife and whatever else came along. So I am guessing my job pays in the $8,000-10,000 range for us right now.

[MonoxideChild]

When I negotiated my salary here, I gave up $5,000 a year so that they would insure my wife and whatever else came along. So I am guessing my job pays in the $8,000-10,000 range for us right now.

Do you think that's worth the 6 or 7 doctor's appointments you'll have next year? I remember when I had my daughter, the visits were short and nto really that intensive. So, your work contributing that much is cool, but it's still not worth that much. That money will factor into some of their other business decisions and will have a negative impact on both you and them overall. Also, I'm assuming that you and your family are healthy. Not trying to jinx you guys, but if something happens, thats when the screw jobs start.

[sideoutshu]

Do you think that's worth the 6 or 7 doctor's appointments you'll have next year? I remember when I had my daughter, the visits were short and nto really that intensive. So, your work contributing that much is cool, but it's still not worth that much. That money will factor into some of their other business decisions and will have a negative impact on both you and them overall. Also, I'm assuming that you and your family are healthy. Not trying to jinx you guys, but if something happens, thats when the screw jobs start.

Well I would love it if they did some type of health screening on which they based your insurance premiums like they do for life insurance. However the amount of sports-related orthopedic injuries i have had over the last 10 years probably offsets my overall health. My shoulder surgery probably cost the insurance company a good 10K.

[levdgg]

Do you think that's worth the 6 or 7 doctor's appointments you'll have next year? I remember when I had my daughter, the visits were short and nto really that intensive. So, your work contributing that much is cool, but it's still not worth that much. That money will factor into some of their other business decisions and will have a negative impact on both you and them overall. Also, I'm assuming that you and your family are healthy. Not trying to jinx you guys, but if something happens, thats when the screw jobs start.

I used to think like that, until a few years ago when I got hit with a litany of illnesses and injuries. I was pissed that I opted for an HMO over a PPO from work since I hadn't been sick my entire life.

My experience has been two-fold: Everything I've dealt with has been cured, so I feel blessed, for lack of a better word, to even be insured. Worth every penny.

On the flip side, I've dealt with one hassle after another -- messed up explanations of benefits followed by hour-long phone calls with the company, prescriptions that cost 40 bucks when I'm expecting it to cost 10 (though I don't see issues like this changing with some sort of universal healthcare. Imagine calling your gov't HMO everytime your bill is f'ed up?). I'm also pissed that my job skimmed their expenses by switching providers. Having learned my lesson, I switched to the best PPO they had to offer, which is **** compared to my previous provider and I don't really have a choice in the matter. I pay 20 percent on advanced radiology (MRI etc) and and another 300 deductible on the same thing. An MRI last year cost me about 600 when it cost me 35 on my previous plan. Specialists are 35 a pop compared to 20 on my previous, which includes physical therapy. I partially tore my rotator cuff and my not-so-intense rehab sessions were costing me 105 per week. Definitely makes you say there has to be a better option than this. Makes you afraid to get sick or hurt. Again, I'm not sure what it is.

[MonoxideChild]

Well I would love it if they did some type of health screening on which they based your insurance premiums like they do for life insurance. However the amount of sports-related orthopedic injuries i have had over the last 10 years probably offsets my overall health. My shoulder surgery probably cost the insurance company a good 10K.

Hey, we're on the same boat here. I think I've broken just about everything possible. I still have pins in my ankle that should've been replaced, but it just keeps getting pushed to the side, because apparently it's no biggie. Lol. But when you really get down to it, having a broken bone or previous restorative surgerical procedures, doesn't really have an impact on how likely you are to come down with pneumonia. So, then, why does it affect if your ability to seek simple, fast, cures? I think this is the REAL heart of the matter. These insurance companies are basically taking your money, but not really giving you anything when when you need them to.

[sideoutshu]

Hey, we're on the same boat here. I think I've broken just about everything possible. .

Right leg twice(tripped playing rugby), left leg once(landed on in football), right arm(broke on rim while dunking), right collar bone(over the handlebars of a bike), two ribs(taking a charge in hoops and got a knee) , left pinky (blocking in vball)

Most of the stuff happened before I was out of high school except the arm and the ribs. Then I just had the shoulder surgery this past DEC and have 3 titanium screws left in there. But it works!

[MonoxideChild]

Right leg twice(tripped playing rugby), left leg once(landed on in football), right arm(broke on rim while dunking), right collar bone(over the handlebars of a bike), two ribs(taking a charge in hoops and got a knee) , left pinky (blocking in vball)

Most of the stuff happened before I was out of high school except the arm and the ribs. Then I just had the shoulder surgery this past DEC and have 3 titanium screws left in there. But it works!

I rememebr the first winter after I got the pins in my ankle. I stepped outside and it felt like someone kicked me right in the bone. I was like WTF? Then I learned that the metal will always be much, MCUH, colder than the rest of my body. I figured there would be some sort of insulation properties from the pins being like an inch inside of the foot, but nope. Lol, a lesson learned.

[sideoutshu]

I rememebr the first winter after I got the pins in my ankle. I stepped outside and it felt like someone kicked me right in the bone. I was like WTF? Then I learned that the metal will always be much, MCUH, colder than the rest of my body. I figured there would be some sort of insulation properties from the pins being like an inch inside of the foot, but nope. Lol, a lesson learned.

I guess titanium is really expensive, cause the bigest part of my surgery bill was the 900 bucks per screw.

[Gotti]

When I negotiated my salary here, I gave up $5,000 a year so that they would insure my wife and whatever else came along. So I am guessing my job pays in the $8,000-10,000 range for us right now.
and you are cool with that? it pisses me off! thats money i could be putting away for lil man to go to school.

[RicoVacilon]

and you are cool with that? it pisses me off! thats money i could be putting away for lil man to go to school.

Well here's the thing. . . if you need it it's worth it. If you don't it's not. And here's the other thing--it's tax free compensation whereas if it was salary it would be taxable income. Doesn't always balance out, but it's something to consider. Of course if health insurance benefits start getting taxed that's all out the window.

By the way, I don't have any titanium screws, but my steel testicles were free--I was born with 'em.

[Gotti]

Well here's the thing. . . if you need it it's worth it. If you don't it's not. And here's the other thing--it's tax free compensation whereas if it was salary it would be taxable income. Doesn't always balance out, but it's something to consider. Of course if health insurance benefits start getting taxed that's all out the window.

By the way, I don't have any titanium screws, but my steel testicles were free--I was born with 'em.
agreed. however, i have a hard time believing the prices i am paying are commensurate with the possible costs to the insurance company.

[RicoVacilon]

agreed. however, i have a hard time believing the prices i am paying are commensurate with the possible costs to the insurance company.

My brother was an actuary for several years. He was, however, in the pension side of things. That said, he's also a right wing puppet and I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth anyway, but I might ask him how far off premiums were from payouts. The CEO salaries should give us a hint though.

[sanantonio]

My brother was an actuary for several years. He was, however, in the pension side of things. That said, he's also a right wing puppet and I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth anyway, but I might ask him how far off premiums were from payouts. The CEO salaries should give us a hint though.

That's all I've been saying and asking.