The Run and Shoot for NCAA2k5..

[CrazyOldGuy]

WHO AM I TO PREDICT! I'm the guy who thought they'd go winless in their last 2 games and miss the bowl!!!!! I never been more happy to be so wrong!

I'll be happy with 1 win next year. A winning season would be terrific, and a bowl game would be another Hawai'i June Jones MIRACLE.

But anything can happen! Who could have predicted they would go from 0-12 to a bowl game in one year in 1999.

One thing is for sure 1 win or an undefeated season I'll still be rooting for them.

"GO WARRIORS!!!"

[mad_bomber]

Moving to the reconfigured WAC should allow them to be competitive and stay somewhere behind Boise and Fresno State.

[Chef Al]

Does anybody know where i can see some of Utah's games from this year?

[Air Raid]

Speaking of Hawaii..........anyone have any predictions on how they'll do next season????

I think they may be a surprise next year.....but they have to learn to beat Fresno and Boise (which, if this year was any indication, isn't likely to happen)....probably end up with a decent record and a possible bowl birth once again....but I think they will be a little young on O this year and with Chad Owens graduating they will need a new "go to guy".....they will be fun to watch either way....

[MJD]

I think Rivers became that guy at the tail end of the year. He's not as quick as Owens, but he's a better deep threat. Someone's got to take a chance on Owens in the draft. You couldn't catch that sucker in a phone booth. He's definitely a middle-round return specialist.

Not a chance that Hawai'i will beat BSU next season. BSU's defense is geared to stop the WAC. Those guys are extremely fast. But they did get shown for what they are against Louisville. What'd they give up 300 rushing? I don't think UH's 2 running plays are going to gash them like Louisville did.

Defensively they'll still be soft and getting thumped by USC at home to open could create some confidence issues.

[mad_bomber]

I think Rivers became that guy at the tail end of the year. He's not as quick as Owens, but he's a better deep threat. Someone's got to take a chance on Owens in the draft. You couldn't catch that sucker in a phone booth. He's definitely a middle-round return specialist.

Not a chance that Hawai'i will beat BSU next season. BSU's defense is geared to stop the WAC. Those guys are extremely fast. But they did get shown for what they are against Louisville. What'd they give up 300 rushing? I don't think UH's 2 running plays are going to gash them like Louisville did.

Defensively they'll still be soft and getting thumped by USC at home to open could create some confidence issues.

The UofL did that against everyone they played . I attended the game they played at Memphis and the Liberty Bowl. The Cards have some impressive athletes. I don't know if that caliber of team is in the WAC. So BSU should be ok in that regards.

[MJD]

...By the way, I can't believe how this thread continues to grow ......

It's because the run N shoot is greatest "O" ever. Ya' can't defend it, you can only hope to contain it.....which is why it's been quietly banned in the NFL

Again, the system has its problems just like every other offense. If it can't be stopped and June Jones is the guru of this offense, why are there times when UH can't move the football? If somebody believed it could win in its pure form in the NFL, they would use it. Gilbride's still around and he's not using it anymore. He must be content to lose more games and use an "accepted" offense than to be a rebel and win every ballgame? The RNS is a good system and can win in high school and college, but it's not a pro system. I love watching Hawai'i play, but I do stop short of heroworship of JJ and the RNS.

[sparepart33]

I think this system could work or variations of it but the bottomline is defense wins in the NFL. You only need to be average on O. Defense can carry you a long way. The R-N-S style teams don't know the first thing about defense. That is probably why you don't see this style too much in the pros. The R-N-S may get you to the dance but it certainly won't get the trophy unless you have the "D" to go with it. Defense wins at all levels. Offense can only take you so far. But it certainly is alot of fun to watch.

[Melton82]

I think there are run and shoot principles being used in almost NFL every teams offense. There are always adjustments being made to route assignments (The colts passing attack). But at the same time, the colts didnt make the super bowl did they???? Throwing the ball to score quickly and throwing the ball to retain possesion and control the clock are 2 different animals. Live by the shoot and die by the shoot (hence Warron Moon and the Oilers). There has to be a happy medium to keep the your defense off the field. Dont get me wrong. I love the offense, i love high scoring games, but you can't win every shoot out.

[Air Raid]

The RNS is a good system and can win in high school and college, but it's not a pro system. I love watching Hawai'i play, but I do stop short of heroworship of JJ and the RNS.

..Why is it not a pro system again?.....I guess all of the success that the Oilers, Falcons and Lions had wasn't because of the R-N-S, but all of the "problems" ("problems" being defined as not winning a superbowl...and I guess they were the only teams to not win a superbowl while the Run and Shoot was around in the pros...) those teams had WAS because of the R-N-S...

...again, the R-N-S gets blamed for what? Never winning a superbowl? Well I guess everybody should be running the Patriots Offense next year then, otherwise they will have no chance at winning anything...and I guess Notre Dame will win the National Championship with ease now that Wiese as the head coach.....please!!!!!!!....The R-N-S has nothing to do with talent level, coaching ability and the like...it has proven to be just as successful (if not more successful) then any other offense ever produced and to blame it for something like not winning a superbowl or for being "undisplined" and "radical" is just dumb.....(and of course it can be stopped and slowed down...every offense can...)...

....I don't worship June Jones either, but I applaud him for keeping the R-N-S alive...

[MJD]

For the exact same reason that the Air Raid will never be a pro system. You can not maintain 5 and 6-man protections throughout an entire professional game like you can at the lower levels. You must be able to protect with 7, and at times 8, in the pros. So much of their protections are check-release based. This is a great way to combat the zone blitz. Where the zone blitz wants to soak up a blocker and then drop into coverage, the check-release allows you to soak up a rusher and occupy a pass defender that must account for the release.

Additionally, you can't send a guy in motion and determine man or zone in the NFL like you can on a Playstation. You can get away with this at the high school level, and at the college level to a lesser degree, but folks will hide that from you. So, how many times are your guys going to blow reads or read something other than what the QB sees? This is a fundamental problem in the offense. There are too many moving parts.

Football has changed a lot since those teams had that success. The last time the offense was in the pros was with San Diego. Gilbride went 4-12 in 1997 and Gilbride/Jones went 5-11 in 1998. It had been figured out. It's not enough offense at that level. DCs know the route adjustments and know what they are giving up. It's not magic, it's just an offense. San Diego was 29 of 30 in scoring offense that year and they threw a ton of picks. I thought this offense thrived with lesser talent?

Additionally, I don't believe you can get away with throwing the ball every down in the pros. The DCs at that level are crazy good and they will whip you. Success at the college level does not translate into success at the pro level. See Dennis Erickson and Steve Spurrier. Both run "spread" (I don't like that term because it is so broad, but...) type offenses and they got hammered at the pro level. Pro and college is apples and oranges. It's like Mormonism and Christianity. They use the same words, but it's not the same thing.

And I wholly disagree with your assertion that it has nothing to do with talent level. The #1 thing that determines success, at any level, is talent. You are not going to out-scheme talent. It just doesn't happen. Warren Moon didn't set all of the records that he did based on the handful of years that he played in this system. Jim Kelly didn't set all of the records he did based on the couple of years of the K-Gun offense. Good players are good players. Notre Dame will not win because they don't have the talent to win. System is irrelevant. I just get tired of hearing that the spread offenses and/or the RNS are unstoppable. They can be beat, just like every other system out there. It comes down to: #1 what the players can do, and #2 how well they know what they're supposed to do.

I don't believe that there is a conspiracy in the NFL to keep the Shoot down. I don't believe the government is listening in on my phone calls, either.

[Melton82]

that opened up a whole can of worms

[Air Raid]

And I wholly disagree with your assertion that it has nothing to do with talent level. The #1 thing that determines success, at any level, is talent. You are not going to out-scheme talent. It just doesn't happen. Warren Moon didn't set all of the records that he did based on the handful of years that he played in this system. Jim Kelly didn't set all of the records he did based on the couple of years of the K-Gun offense. Good players are good players. Notre Dame will not win because they don't have the talent to win. System is irrelevant. I just get tired of hearing that the spread offenses and/or the RNS are unstoppable. They can be beat, just like every other system out there. It comes down to: #1 what the players can do, and #2 how well they know what they're supposed to do.

I don't believe that there is a conspiracy in the NFL to keep the Shoot down. I don't believe the government is listening in on my phone calls, either.

..You missed my point there MJD...I was trying to say that talent level DOES have something to do with it....as in...maybe if the Oilers, Falcons and Lions had MORE talent then they would have made it to the Superbowl....I was trying to make the point that the R-N-S allowed them to OVERACHIEVE and that without the R-N-S those teams would have not done as well....(remember the Falcons sucked the year before June took over...and he had the same team and went to the playoffs the next year)....but you never hear that point of the argument...because people blame the R-N-S for thier lack of success in the playoffs and not because maybe they had less talent or that they were out coached.....I'm trying to say just what you are saying...The R-N-S is JUST a system and should not be blamed for the lack of "playoff success" it's teams had while it was in the pros....the R-N-S worked ....the R-N-S isn't what kept those teams form succeeding....it was coaching, lack of talent and situations....

...I do agree with you that DCs at the pro level are better and brighter, but from what I have read about the R-N-S...they have seen it all too....it's not like they don't have answers for the Blitz....

...I do agree with you about the balance between running and passing...although I don't think you need to have balance between attempts, but more about balance between yardage and execution.....

...I do believe that if you are a coach and you run the R-N-S you are less likely to land an NFL job than if you are a coach that runs a "conventional" offense....but I don't think the Governement is listening to my phone calls either...so I'm with you on that one...LOL!!

[sparepart33]

for the love of football. gotta love the passion. great discussion that could go on for days. i think just about any system will work at any level. the key is adjusting when your opponent has figured things out. A combo of coaching and talent is needed especially at the pro level. If you don't have the talent at that level, the coaching becomes pointless.

[Air Raid]

that opened up a whole can of worms

..Hey we are just expressing our views...I think MJD and I have done this before...I'm not taking it personally and I hope he isn't either.....