U.S. Taxpayers Recover Billions in Sale of G.M. Stock

[theanalogkid]

Here is why blaming the unions (solely) is unconscionable is related to the free market ideologues who believe the invisible hand will result in justice. They say that laborers shouldn't complain about working 18 hour shifts in coal mines with no respirators or medical treatment for black lung because the invisible hand would fix everything if they would just take their minimal power and pool it together. So they pool their minimal power together and form a union which the management actually has to respect and then the ideologues say that they're the reason the free market is a mess.

Unions aren't a free market phenomenon, they are backed by government regulations. If it was truly free market, the company could just fire the workers and hire other people if they tried to extort the company. Here's tide bit of info for you, the unions don't care if someone lose their job because the company doesn't have the money to pay for a wage increase for everyone. They might cry over the lost union dues, but that's about it.

Lets not forget to mention the amount of violence by unions against non-union workers, workers who refuse to strike, or against companies. This ranges from destruction of property, assault, attempted murder, and murder itself. I'm not saying businesses are perfect, far from it, but unions aren't great either. They take advantage of their workers and they don't even know it.

[RicoVacilon]

Unions aren't a free market phenomenon, they are backed by government regulations. If it was truly free market, the company could just fire the workers and hire other people if they tried to extort the company. Here's tide bit of info for you, the unions don't care if someone lose their job because the company doesn't have the money to pay for a wage increase for everyone. They might cry over the lost union dues, but that's about it.

Lets not forget to mention the amount of violence by unions against non-union workers, workers who refuse to strike, or against companies. This ranges from destruction of property, assault, attempted murder, and murder itself. I'm not saying businesses are perfect, far from it, but unions aren't great either. They take advantage of their workers and they don't even know it.

Dude, you are so woefully ignorant on all things economic you should listen to the voice inside your head that tells you to give up. Unions aren't free market? You mean getting together and pooling your power is NOT free market? lol

You're exactly the idiotlog. . . oops . . . I mean ideologue I'm referring to. Actually, you're not even that. You're just a back-seat driver economist wannabe who can't hack the academic part of it but excels at the self-gratifying rhetoric of logical circle jerks.

[theanalogkid]

Dude, you are so woefully ignorant on all things economic you should listen to the voice inside your head that tells you to give up. Unions aren't free market? You mean getting together and pooling your power is NOT free market? lol

You're exactly the idiotlog. . . oops . . . I mean ideologue I'm referring to. Actually, you're not even that. You're just a back-seat driver economist wannabe who can't hack the academic part of it but excels at the self-gratifying rhetoric of logical circle jerks.

How does a union exist without the government backing it? It doesn't. The National Recovery Act and the Wagner Act of 1935 requires that companies recognize unions and bargain with them and if they don't, the business gets found guilty of "unfair labor practices" Something tells me that doesn't happen in a true free market.

In a true free market when the union demands artificially high wages the business tells the union to shove it and they fire the workers and hire ones that won't extort the company.

Keep pretending you know what a free market really is, and what capitalism is for that matter. All you continue to do is type out that bleeding heart crap. Oh noes, the guy putting breaks on a car might lose his job making $40-50/hr when factoring all his benefit in along his with higher than market wages. So sad..... Do you see why I don't shed a tear over a failed business actually failing. How many times does the US have to bail out failed companies? Chrysler has failed twice so far, perhaps 3rd time is the charm?

[RicoVacilon]

How does a union exist without the government [sic] backing it? It doesn't.

You're right, because in your idea of a free market the company would simply open up on the striking union workers (and families) with machine guns. Yea, we shouldn't need any laws preventing something like that, should we?

I completely understand your version of free market economics. It's called anarchy.

[theanalogkid]

You're right, because in your idea of a free market the company would simply open up on the striking union workers (and families) with machine guns. Yea, we shouldn't need any laws preventing something like that, should we?

I completely understand your version of free market economics. It's called anarchy.

Strawman. lol

One of the main roles of goverment is to prevent someone from using force against another.

The way things are now however is that a union can demand a higher wages than they already agreed to and the company has to negotiate or the owner can go to jail.

If I went to my manager and said pay me more or I'm not going to work, I'd be told to GTFO.

[RicoVacilon]

Strawman. lol

Not at all. I think you need to brush up on your labor history in England and the US.

The way things are now however is that a union can demand a higher wages than they already agreed to and the company has to negotiate or the owner can go to jail.

That's completely inaccurate.

If I went to my manager and said pay me more or I'm not going to work, I'd be told to GTFO.

That says more for your own personal worth in the workforce than it does for unions. Maybe getting a college degree would help?

[conviction]

So TAK, if employees of working mines in seriously hazardous conditions lobby the government for greater protection, ie masks, better conditions. the government should say shove it? the business can hirer other people, and if it comes down to it, they will only create better conditions if no one will take the jobs? What if the worker there has no where else to go? say he works in a mine in montana and no other jobs are available, does he not deserve his job to be one he can work in a livable environment?

Also, what about child labor laws? if the the whole entire market of people are subject to work and there is no minimum wage laws, wages will drop with a higher market, sure more people working. but none of the people working now can even support a family, kids start working.... and does government subsidize these people that dont make enough money, especially with dropping of wages?

there has to be some sort of regulation.

[RicoVacilon]

there has to be some sort of regulation.

Not for anarchists!

[theanalogkid]

So TAK, if employees of working mines in seriously hazardous conditions lobby the government for greater protection, ie masks, better conditions. the government should say shove it? the business can hirer other people, and if it comes down to it, they will only create better conditions if no one will take the jobs? What if the worker there has no where else to go? say he works in a mine in montana and no other jobs are available, does he not deserve his job to be one he can work in a livable environment?

Also, what about child labor laws? if the the whole entire market of people are subject to work and there is no minimum wage laws, wages will drop with a higher market, sure more people working. but none of the people working now can even support a family, kids start working.... and does government subsidize these people that dont make enough money, especially with dropping of wages?

there has to be some sort of regulation.

Where did I say that there shouldn't be protections in place? What I said was is that unions don't really protect their members, nor really give a **** if some of them lose their jobs when they demand higher pay. Besides that fact, conditions get better as the capital structure in the country develops. That's why people in Africa work in sweatshops because the capital structure their isn't as developed.

As far as the minimum wage, I think it's better to have more people working at a lower wage than force people that aren't as productive to be unemployed. Someone making $60,000 is going to continue to make $60,000. Perhaps it hurts people right at the border line, I don't think creating a class of dependents is a good idea though because it's simply not sustainable.

Unions push everyone's wages down too, since the amount of money companies can use for labor is finite when unions extort more from companies, the companies can hire less people. So the people who can't be hired now have to find jobs elsewhere and because the pool of available people is now larger it pushes wages down.

Not at all. I think you need to brush up on your labor history in England and the US.

What you just said is a strawman, that isn't my view of free market economics at all.

The way things are now however is that a union can demand a higher wages than they already agreed to and the company has to negotiate or the owner can go to jail.

There are things called a wildcat strike and yes people have gone to jail for "unfair labor practices"

That says more for your own personal worth in the workforce than it does for unions. Maybe getting a college degree would help?

I doubt you'd find anyone here on this board that wouldn't get the same answer.

[RicoVacilon]

I doubt you'd find anyone here on this board that wouldn't get the same answer.

I wouldn't. I've already got two.

[theanalogkid]

I wouldn't. I've already got two.

Yes I'm sure you said "Give me a raise or I'm refusing to do any work"

[RicoVacilon]

Yes I'm sure you said "Give me a raise or I'm refusing to do any work"

That's not what you responded to. Learn2quote!